Should Women Man Up?

by Will Wilkinson on February 1, 2010

I was a bit perplexed by Clay Shirky’s piece calling for women to be more aggressive and ridiculously self-aggrandizing — to be more like men — in order to level the playing field.  Ann Friedman replies today, and I agree with her when she says:

Just as self-defense classes are not a solution to the problem of campus rape, self-advancement classes will not, on their own, improve things for women in the professional world. It will take a long time — and a lot of conscious effort — to dispel deeply ingrained stereotypes about work and gender. Women can’t do that alone. The burden also falls on people in positions of power — those who are doing the hiring, promoting, recommending, and mentoring — to understand the gender dynamics at play and to push back against them.

And I agree when she says:

This is a broad, cultural problem. If, like me, you believe that your biology is not the primary factor in determining your strengths and weaknesses in the workplace, you believe that we are shaped by the society in which we live. Which is to say, there are cultural, structural reasons why men are typically more assertive, more self-promotional, and more successful everywhere from the boardroom to the op-ed pages to the halls of Congress.

Now, I fear that Friedman may be verging a bit too close to blank-slatism here. Men do have higher concentrations of certain hormones that, other things equal, make them more aggressive than women. And there are no doubt other biological mechanisms that explain differences in the ways men and women tend to cooperate and compete. But we are thoroughly cultural creatures and I think Friedman is right that there are also “cultural, structural reasons” that explain why men and women behave differently in the workplace.

My problem with Shirky’s argument is that, assuming that men and women are wired a bit differently, and that this explains some part of observed differences in behavior and achievement, why should we ask women to be more aggressively competitive and self-promotional instead of asking men to be less so?

I think a lot of people want to say that it is simply unrealistic to ask men to chill out. Boys will be boys. And women are more pliable than men. They at least can ramp up the aggression, while competitive men will go all out no matter what. So the “everybody act like an a**hole” scenario is at least stable. And, in the end, women who otherwise would not have made it to the top will have.

First, it’s not clear to me that a new norm of more aggressively competitive women won’t encourage even more aggressively competitive men. I don’t think this would entirely prevent the greater success of a more aggressive class of women, but it may also make our professional culture even more unpleasant than it already is. Do we really want to do that?

Second, it’s not clear to me that actively stigmatizing the kind of ridiculous, overreaching self-promotion Shirky thinks is characteristic of men wouldn’t work. We want people to be “go-getters,” but we don’t want them to be obnoxious and mendacious while they try to go and get it. Why shouldn’t we tell Shirky that he should have written that guy a recommendation letter that makes it clear what an a**hole that guy is? I think he should!  Hey Clay, stop writing positive recommendation letters for self-embellishing strivers!

There are certain habits of behavior characteristic of some men clearly rooted in a desire to intimidate and assert social dominance. If the ability to intimidate and dominate — to act like an “alpha” — doesn’t have anything to do with performance at a job, then “alpha” behavior should be recognized as the unproductive social aggression that it is and accordingly discouraged through disapproval, mockery, and social and professional sanction. Decent men and women with natural talents for dominance and status competition can channel their aggressive dispositions productively by bringing them to bear on those who flout fair and productive egalitarian social norms.

And Friedman is right that those who dispense opportunities can and should become more conscious of an entrenched bias toward rewarding a certain kind of competitive zeal and can and should do more to identify and reward talented people disinclined to grasping self-puffery.

I understand that there are a good number of folks in the grip of a certain kind of vulgar pop-evo psych who will bridle at the idea of shackling the splendid blond beast. But civilization really is worth it.

  • kjg
    This person is not seeing the point of the original article. If you're a professional woman, are you interested in complaining about how aggressive men are, or about how "people in positions of power' fail to 'understand the gender dynamics at play'--and waiting a few hundred years for that to change? Or, are you interested in controlling your own destiny and being successful by changing the only thing you can change--your own behavior?

    In other words--self-defense classes aren't going to eliminate rape. But that doesn't mean they're bad!
  • Sarah
    One other point -- female risk-aversion is certainly useful in some scenarios.

    It's a commonplace among development organizations that women in poor countries are better investments than men. They're more likely to put a grant of money to good use -- feeding and educating their children, starting a small business -- whereas a man is more likely to drink and gamble it away. Women seem more likely to take thought for the future.

    Possibly it's an evolutionary trait due to women having to bear and raise children.

    But I do think that kind of risk-aversion backfires if the woman is on the high end of Western professional life.
  • Sarah
    I'd actually like to defend Shirky here.

    First of all, he is aware that he "sets women up for backlash" -- and he wants them to be brave enough to take it on the chin. (Read about Emmeline Pankhurst and your own problems seem small.)

    Second of all, he's not exclusively talking about aggressive behavior. He's also talking about risk-taking behavior -- taking classes or jobs you're not quite qualified for, applying for opportunities you might not get, entering competitions you might lose.

    Anecdotally, I find that attitude to risk is a bigger difference between men and women than self-promotion is. There are plenty of women who think they're the bee's knees -- but even those women, usually, don't take professional risks in the sense of venturing outside their own known abilities. Even the self-promoting women are often too cagey to state an opinion unless they're absolutely sure they're right.

    I don't think more professional risk-taking would be bad as a general norm, in the same way that higher aggressiveness might be. I think people would learn more and be more creative.

    I happen to be a woman who's not much of a self-promoter but is something of a gambler. If there's a conference, I'll apply to present there. If there's a competition, I'll enter it, even if I'm not totally confident of my ability. If there's a hellishly hard class, I'll take it. If I have a conjecture, I'll state it.

    There are lots of people more intelligent and more diligent than me -- and every once in a while I'll come out ahead because I have more chutzpah.

    I'd say that's probably a good trait to promote. Not necessarily arrogance or self-promotion or "leadership," but the willingness to try things that might fail.

    (By the way, there was a discussion here earlier about women in philosophy. I think you can probably attribute the paucity of women to the fact that it looks "riskier" to start studying something that's not obviously preprofessional and that most high school graduates know little about. If women were less risk-averse they might give it a shot.)
  • Men act aggressively because it helps get what they want. Unlikely they will cease doing so out of kindness.
  • Self-defense classes aren't enough? That's why handguns were invented.
  • GU
    Short Shirkey: no risk, no reward. If women want great success, they must take great risks. Most women do not take many risks. So do not expect the percentage of very successful women to increase anytime soon.

    I think this is probably factually correct. Mr. Wilkinson seized on the aesthetic of what Shirkey was saying—it sounded bad, kind of brutish for the sake of being brutish. But I think all Shirkey was (ineloquently) trying to say is that reward is proportional to risk.
  • anonymouse
    That does seem to be the actually interesting and relevant bit of what Shirky is saying, thanks for reminding me about that. It's not just about self-promotion, it's about willingness to take risks, and that's something that I think does depend on gender, among many other cultural factors. I think it might be a useful thing to discuss.
  • It's worth noting that this is a particularly American performance of masculinity in the workplace. I've worked with predominately American teams, and teams with people born and raised in China but working in the US, and what is an acceptable amount of bluster and bravado to bring to the interview (which is the point of the Shirky article) were radically different. The Chinese team had very little patience for the "I'm awesome and I'll pick up what I need to know later!" strategy of getting hired.

    It's also different, in subtle ways, with the Indian and Indonesian teams I've interviewed recruits with. Each culture, within and between nations, has their own definition of competence.

    And as Matt Steinglass pointed out at Shirky's comments, the ultimate "Just give me the position and I can learn everything on the job" female candidate was Sarah Palin....
  • As long as we have Will Wilkinsons roaming the earth, getting the ladies to "man up" will be the least of our worries.


    “I’m a metrosexual, meek, mild, and ineffectual
    My girlfriend takes karate, stands up to use the potty
    We’re gender-confused to the tips of our shoes
    The all-new American couple.”

    --Fred Reed
  • daniel1
    Some thoughts:

    I'm not sure that our pool of people with the character traits that make one suitable to being in positions of authority and responsibility is greater than or equal to the need for managers/leaders/etc. in our socioeconomic pyramids. If it isn't, then a lot of people are going to be faking it, and "performing masculinity" is one way of doing so.

    If the opposite of assertiveness is deference, then we're either going to be spineless subjects of authority, or we're ALSO going to need stronger social norms for collectively choosing the best individuals for actual fitness and not performance of dominance.

    In either case, I think to some extent you refuted yourself: just as how do you make women more competitive without making men even more competitive, what gender-specific dial do you manipulate to tune down male assertiveness without affecting female assertiveness? This conception has male/female traits as two independent sliding scales. I think it's more likely that you have a mean level of assertiveness, and then you have a yin-yang dynamic where the genders are defined in relation to each other. In this case, it's that big abstract sense that male=primary female=secondary, male=dominant female=submissive, that's the root of it. Conscious correction of this specific (though very abstract) norm would be what's needed, not penalizing people more for being assholes.

    I think the best answer is still decentralizing social hierarchy as much as possible, which is one of Clay Shirky's better hobby horses...
  • The "Trick of a Tiny Belly" Google ad in the RSS feed really adds a touch of class to this debate.

    http://drp.ly/jZseS
  • Keep it classy, Google.
  • So, the obvious point to make is that we already have a pretty wide array of "normal" ways to perform masculinity across cultural subgroups, with different levels of aggression appropriate to each. What reads as effete in one context may seem like an a absurd display of macho boorishness in another. So there's at least that level of learned plasticity...
  • It would be nice for more men to admit that they indeed "perform masculinity." It opens up the performance to evaluation.
  • Jack666666
    What if I don't want my performance evaluated? And what if it isn't a performance and a critic is just someone harassing me?
  • "What if I don't want my performance evaluated? And what if it isn't a performance and a critic is just someone harassing me?"

    In social situations, all of our "performances" are evaluated, like it or not. I don't have a choice in being "evaluated" for my gendered role as a woman. a Hispanic or whatever other societal label that is put on me. It's part of living in a society, such group dynamics are always in play unless you want to live in a cave alone somewhere. It's fascinating to me that you think you actually have a choice in being evaluated on social expectations or roles. In fact, these questions speak to a certain expectation of privelege, in that perhaps you think you are above your social role being questioned. Or maybe you think your soical "prowess" is so great it seems ridiculous to even be "evaluated" at all (even though you are like it or not). I just think your comments are fascinating.
  • Dain
    The book Female Chauvinist Pigs by Ariel Levy comes to mind here.
  • J R
    I do not have any particular feelings about the relative effectiveness in making women more aggressive versus making men less so. I do have feelings about the sort of social engineering that such projects might entail. More specifically, how do you cull all this supposedly excess aggrssion from men without engaging in some of the more dubious practices we have already started to see amongst our more progressive institutions of learning: looking down on competitive sports, handing out participation awards to everyone who shows up, grade inflation, doing everything by committee, the constant application of praise, etc.?

    Also, I am all for helping to bring about a situation in which an individual is free to rise to the level that his or her talents, choices and luck take him or her, but there is something fundamentally illiberal in the move from equality of opportunity to equality of outcomes.
  • conchis
    Struggling to find a link at the moment, but I recall reading that an added complication is that women who adopt stereotypically masculine behaviors are often perceived negatively for doing so. (Assertive men are leaders, assertive women are "b****es".)

    (This http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=buy.optionT... isn't quite what I was looking for, but gives a sort of flavor).
  • curious
    plus one to what conchis said.

    e.g.:

    "... assertiveness research shows that males may react negatively to females' use of powerful communication (Carli, 1990; Wiley & Eskilson, 1985), defined as direct, assertive communication, in contrast to a traditional, tentative communicative manner (Wiley & Eskilson, 1985, p. 996). ... For ambitious women who have been encouraged to be assertive, or who are predisposed to argumentativeness, these findings pose a dilemma..."
    http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst?docId=...

    there's also this find, out this month:

    "In self-advocacy contexts, women anticipate that assertiveness will evoke incongruity evaluations, negative attributions, and subsequent “backlash”; hence, women hedge their assertiveness, using fewer competing tactics and obtaining lower outcomes. However, in other-advocacy contexts, women achieve better outcomes as they do not expect incongruity evaluations or engage in hedging."
    http://content.apa.org/journals/psp/98/2/256

    so it's seen as OK for women to fight for others, but not for themselves.

    but this is just another argument against shirky's suggestion that women start acting like men and for will's suggestion to eliminate/downplay aggression as a metric for evaluating people.

    and incidentally, some of the sputtering male reactions here made my day. thanks, fellas.
  • That's an important point. Here's how Friedman put it:

    "Shirky does not acknowledge that his answer (which says women just need to man up) sets women up for backlash. Women who are loud and proud about their abilities and experience will be declared uppity bitches -- or at least privately thought of that way. Studies have shown that employees, both male and female, are wary of working for high-achieving women."

    I wonder what studies in particular she has in mind.
  • Here's a representative study.

    http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/cfawis/bowles.pdf
  • dhex
    thanks!
  • dhex
    if both men and women don't like working for high achieving women (in general), then what's the solution to that? waiting for one generation to die out? that seems unsatisfying.

    or is it a gendered way of expressing that no one really likes working for assholes? (i haven't read the study, so i can't say one way or the other)

    as a side note, the whole alpha/beta dichotomy has really set back discourse on this and related topics of gender.

    second side note: this "look up" feature/toolbar kinda sucks.
  • Brent
    If some men are wired to aggressively pursue advancement and leadership, could it not also be true that a big chunk of the rest of us are wired to follow that kind of leader? If so, then discouraging aggressive jockeying for position might just reduce the effectiveness of teams with such people in them, as the team members' respect and admiration for the leader is diminished by the leader's being less aggressive.
  • I think you make a good point here, but I wouldn't be so fatalistic about it. I think there is a fairly natural tendency for some to defer to dominant types. Which I think leads to a probably-irrational bias toward putting alpha types in leadership positions. I suspect there's little reason to believe that a disposition toward dominance corresponds at all with effective leadership in most contemporary settings. So we're tricked by our primate minds into confusing signals of chimp-troop dominance with signals of effective management skill in modern institutions.
  • petertwieg
    How does one get a grip on what the optimal level of aggression is, however? It seems like a lazy first-pass move to argue that less aggression is obviously a Pareto improvement over more. If aggression is considered "bad", maybe this is a problem that should be addressed not by trying to reduce aggression, but by creating better institutions that channel aggression into constructive ends?

    If all you're trying to say is that we should recognize that less male aggression might be preferable to more female aggression... sure, okay. But that's not saying much.
  • Maybe I should draw out some of my assumptions in another post. What I'm thinking is that men are more successful than women in a number of areas not because of superior productivity and on-the-job performance, but because they are more aggressively competitive. This implies that a good deal of female skill and talent is underutilized and that a good number of men occupy posts that would be better occupied by women. Besides being unfair, this misallocation of skill leaves most everyone worse off.

    My contention is that discouraging inappropriate male competitiveness and aggression will likely do more to rectify this inequity and innefficiency than encouraging a more typically male style of competitiveness and aggression in women. Clearer?
  • Jack666666
    I disagree. As someone who was bullied and mobbed in college because of such theories, I think it would be disastrous. My social life was destroyed and my intellectual development was interfered with, all because I was competitive and successful. A number of feminist students decided that I ought to have my undue aggression socially conditioned out of me and I was targeted for feminist diatribes, socially ostracized, slandered, libeled, and insulted publicly to reduce my status and quell my arrogance. This was not only ineffective -- as there is nothing wrong with me -- it was immoral. You have no right to ask anyone to take a backseat, to ask anyone to subordinate themselves for any reason, and you certainly have no right to compel any man to take a backseat for the collective well-being of women. It is harmful and it is evil.
  • Because nothing says "alpha" like thin-skinned whining.
  • Jack666666
    I suppose we should rollback the 19th Amendment, because those suffragettes were whining about not being able to vote.
  • I'm sorry to hear you had a bad experience with some feminists. (How did they succeed in destroying your social life while failing to reduce you status?) You'll notice that I did not call for the subordination of men for "the collective well-being of women." I called for social norms that penalize rather than reward aggressive competitiveness that is irrelevant to actual performance. I'm asking for greater care in ensuring that opportunities are distributed by actual merit rather than jockeying bluster.
  • Jack666666
    How do you determine who should be penalized? How do you determine whether aggressive competitiveness is relevant to performance? How do you prevent abuse of this new social norm, which permits the penalizing of one sex of person on the basis of excessive aggression? What if your new rule is counterproductive in that it only enables bullies and mobs to enact tall poppy syndrome against excellent individuals who stand out, and happen to be male?
  • Jack666666
    I'm sorry to hear you had a bad experience with some feminists. (How did they succeed in destroying your social life while failing to reduce you status?)

    Every time I opened my mouth, one of them was there. They followed me everywhere I went. They challenged my statements in class, showed up where I relaxed and shot the breeze with others to disrupt my conversations, and contacted people I had mentioned offhandedly from my past to instigate gossip wars. They also passed around the false rumor that I was a homosexual. This was ineffective in that it did not make me abandon my competitive spirit. But it had social consequences. I became a target and a scapegoat and a persona non grata. And I still have not lived down many of the slanders they passed around about me to others. This was all a campaign to “rid me of misogyny” and force me to “respect women”. The leader of this gang stalking was a self-described “female chauvinist” whose idol was Hillary Clinton. She often – I’m not kidding – wore a pantssuit.


    You'll notice that I did not call for the subordination of men for "the collective well-being of women." I called for social norms that penalize rather than reward aggressive competitiveness that is irrelevant to actual performance. I'm asking for greater care in ensuring that opportunities are distributed by actual merit rather than jockeying bluster.

    How do we determine what aggressive competitiveness is irrelevant to actual performance? When I chat about kung-fu movies with a bunch of male friends and a feminist interrupts to discuss gender roles or domestic violence or some other consciousness-raising topic, is my aggressive reaction for her to shut up deserving of penalty? Or is the fact that I have no time to relax in my off-hours because a feminist has decided to lecture me incessantly relevant to my academic performance? What if she won’t stop and go away? What if it rises to the level of harassment, but no one will do anything about it because she’s just trying to create a norm of egalitarianism in which women have a right to speak and raise conversational topics, too? What if my insistence that I be left alone is used by some professors as a reason to deprive me of grades that I earned due to my competitiveness? What if I receive false grades? This actually happened.

    You see, once you start “distributing opportunities” it leads to determine who should receive them. And the person whose attitude you dislike is the most competitive and meritorious, why then correcting their attitude becomes a reason to deprive them of what they have earned rightfully. Because you’re just distributing the opportunities to be fair to women. Must stifle those masculine attitudes. Must civilize those aggressive males! It think your new social norm just leads to some social engineer or administrator or human resources person picking favorites and depriving some meritorious male of what he deserves because he’s too confident and self-assured. What you call jockeying bluster, others may call socializing. Relaxation. Free speech. And stamping it out is wrong.
  • petertwieg
    But if productivity were identically distributed within males and females, and if(and this might be a big "if", admittedly) aggression were a credible signal of high productivity in males, then the problem would be that females don't engage in comparable signaling activities.

    In this case, taming aggression would simply make it harder to discriminate high-productivity from low-productivity individuals. Now, one can argue that one shouldn't have to rely on aggression as a signal of high productivity, but wouldn't this end up saying not so much that males shouldn't be aggressive, and more that we just shouldn't reward aggressiveness as we do? Removing the incentives for aggression could be considered discouraging, I guess, but it seems like you have more direct measure in mind.
  • Peter, I don't know of any reason to believe that aggressive behavior corresponds with productivity. Do you?
  • petertwieg
    I'd say that, in general, those who exhibit "alpha" behaviors tend to have the traits more befitting of alphas, which includes being more skilled at whatever it is that they're supposed to be doing.

    It might be a weak correlation, but I think it's reasonable to have a presumption in its favor.
  • I really doubt it. Prison is chock full of aggressive domineering men with very little notable achievement. Prison and Goldman Sachs.
  • petertwieg
    But we're talking about whether P(high productivity in the workplace | aggressive/assertive/etc.) > P(high productivity in the workplace) is a true statement or not, not simply whether aggression is a good strategy/trait in general.

    I think these traits are exhibited not simply because of people's innate propensities, but also because of their particular roles within a given social group. If high competence leads to having a social role that lends itself to assertiveness, then I think we have a perfectly plausible story of how exhibiting these traits would signal competence.

    Again, it's probably not a fantastic signal to discriminate upon, but it might be worse to not discriminate upon it.
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