A Little More Mystic Nationalism

by Will Wilkinson on December 4, 2009

Jonah Goldberg has posted further thoughts on patriotism and nationalism. I think we agree that, in the American context, the distinction between nationalism and patriotism doesn’t come to much. And Jonah agrees that patriotism can be dangerous, but says that the poison is in the dose. I don’t disagree. Our disagreement then is over the point past which a therapeutic dose becomes toxic. My contention is that American patriotism is barely distinguishable from militarism and has been a necessary element in the choice to invade and occupy Iraq, in public support for the unjust imprisonment and state-sanctioned torture of foreigners, and in the erosion of domestic civil rights under the aegis of an imaginary “global war on terror.”

Jonah’s argument goes something like this. Non-rational love is both natural and necessary. It binds people to one another and to shared institutions. Without “a little mystic nationalism,” our rights and liberties would be endangered, perhaps even gone altogether. In particular,  Jonah says “Wilkinson’s mockery wouldn’t be possible if thousands of Americans hadn’t died in an effort to defend his right to mock.”

I hear this argument over and over, and every time it smacks of theft over honest toil.

In the counterfactual world in which the U.S. never entered World Wars I and II, are we less free? Jonah doesn’t know and neither do I. In the counterfactual world in which the American colonies remained in the orbit of the British Empire, are we less free? In the counterfactual world in which the North seceded from the South, as some abolitionists recommended, was emancipation accelerated or delayed?  We do not know. I am fairly confident that all those who died fighting in Vietnam and Iraq did little or nothing to secure our rights to mock. Jonah I’m sure disagrees. But this gets to the heart of our larger disagreement. Where I see an outrageous, repulsive waste of life, Jonah is inclined to see a valiant and tragically necessary defense of the uniquely excellent American way of life. Where I see dangerously toxic patriotic truculence, Jonah is inclined to see the doughty fighting fiber that kept the Huns from our shores.

In any case, it is easy to concede the point that our freedom was bought with blood without conceding that the blood of every fallen American airman, seaman, soldier, and marine bought freedom. Indeed, I can concede the point while continuing to maintain that (a) war generally is disgusting organized mass murder prettified by the majesty of politics and elevated by stirring nationalist appeals, that (b) patriotism tends to makes citizens unthinkingly docile in the face of their state’s calls to war, and that (c) war is the health of the state and among the greatest of all threats to freedom.

As Jonah suggests, tribalism is natural and probably inevitable. Which is why more than a little encouragement is more than enough. The value of liberal rights and a liberal order are clear enough that free people do not need more than a dram of nationalist fortification to rise to liberty’s defense. Liberty is best loved when it is loved because it is good — because it makes possible a rightful order. Liberty is neglected when it is loved merely because it’s what we, the folks in these parts, happen to tell each other we love. An ongoing culture of liberty certainly makes us readier to grasp liberty’s real worth. But a culture in which the love of freedom is too easily confused with an admiration of martial virtue is a culture likely to find itself sooner or later at war with some imagined enemy and its own liberal values.

To say that the love of one’s own can be dangerous, even when liberal values happen to be one’s own, is not to ask of people an inhuman detachment from the meaningful concrete commitments of everyday life. It is simply to note that in a truly civil society, free people act collectively on the basis of public reasons, not shared prejudices. If American blood courses with patriotism beyond the therapeutic dose, life and liberty both are at risk. To brush off such concerns as so much Frenchified abstraction is to put conservative identity politics before liberty and life. I leave it to the patriots to consider which concern is more authentically “American.”

Jonah found my reply to his original post “vile.” For my part, I find the death of tens of thousands in illegitimate wars unspeakably vile. It is a duty to vehemently oppose and discourage them. Here are some questions I have for Jonah: (1) Had American patriotism been rather more subdued in the months and years following 9/11, do you think the invasion of Iraq would have occurred? (2) In what way has the occupation of Iraq made the rights of Americans more secure? (3) Do you agree that the practice of draping the coffins of soldiers killed at war with the national flag makes it more rather than less likely that young men and women will choose to risk death as a soldier? That it makes it more rather than less likely that citizens will see these as noble and necessary deaths, whatever the legitimacy, aim, and consequences of the war?

  • y81
    "Aren't wars massive, expensive government programs?"

    True, but wouldn't your time then be better spent mocking and deriding people like Peter Orszag or Eric Holder, who serve the leviathan, rather than worrying about poor Tommy's soul? Why the bitterness and hatred of soldiers compared to policemen or IRS auditors? Isn't the mad adulation throughout the entire American intelligentsia of the Leader Obama more dangerous than the common people's respect for the simple foot soldier?
  • Steve C
    A pedantic note: using "leviathan" in a pejorative manner is odd. The Leviathan state was intended as a major step up from the state of nature / chaos+destruction of the English civil war. Where for instance 2005 Baghdad would be an example of a leviathan-deficient situation.

    "Orwellian" suffers from the same kind of backward use.
  • tim
    Locke used leviathan in a pejorative manner, presumably to make fun of Hobbes. So there is a long history of such use.
  • y81
    I believe Mr. Wilkinson cherishes the delusion that Baghdad would be happier if Leviathan departed, and the inhabitants were left "free," like Somalis to slaughter each other.

    I'm not a libertarian: I used to work for the leviathan myself before I went into private practice. But I didn't spend my time looking down on the state jobs that didn't require college degrees.
  • The armed killing agents of leviathan don't serve leviathan? Just "poor Tommy"? When Peter Orszag murders some innocent villagers in a far-off land, I'll be sure to complain.
  • y81
    No sale here. Didn't Holder work for Reno? Weren't people murdered at Waco and Oklahoma City just as much as in Iraq? Don't trade restrictions hurt third world peasants at least as much as CIA drones? Your analysis seems predicated on simple class prejudice: people like us may work for as AUSAs but never, never as common foot soldiers.
  • We would also have to attack Russia and China.
  • Craig
    So you don't give a flying you know what about the fact that Iraqis no longer live under a brutal tyranny? Some libertarian you are.
  • There are tens of thousands of Iraqis who no longer live at all!

    I don't mourn the end of Hussein's reign. Who does? And I hope the democracy the U.S. is trying to implant sticks. Who doesn't?

    But do you really think that all it takes to justify the invasion and occupation of a country, and all the death and destruction that entails, is that the people live under a tyrant? A real-deal libertarian would want to the U.S. to invade Myanmar, North Korea, Equatorial Guinea, etc., etc.? Aren't wars massive, expensive government programs?
  • tim
    Will- This can be seen as a variant of a larger point: when are we obliged to make sacrifices to protect the rights of others? Sunstein and Holmes argue that even negative rights have costs, as we have to fund police, court systems, etc. Where do libertarians (of the "real deal" sort you speak) draw the line, and how?
  • mk
    (c) war is the health of the state

    Yes. Gov't is the only institution that can solve a massive security problem, so war makes gov't power necessary.

    The act of starting a war aggravates the security problem, which makes people more dependent on gov't.

    Given this incentive, it is very believable that gov'ts will tend to sell war overly frequently and overly aggressively.
  • If the 16th amendment had never been passed we couldn't afford the militaristic expression of patriotism and the idea of spreading democracy -- we would have avoided WWI, thus WWII, Korea, Viet Nam, Iraq and Afghanistan. We would have maintained our military isolationism, developed free trade and cultural exchange, and we would never have stirred up such resentment overseas.

    Well, it's one possibility. You could say that some other country could have developed weapons with which to overtake our country, but it's not likely any would have tried, as we would have maintained a reasonably strong defense based on the best defense technology, paid for by a different, indirect form of taxation. Who knows how European conflicts would have turned out without our involvement, but I suspect the dynamics would have been something totally different and less drastic.
  • Around the end of a lecture from the late 70s Jeffrey Rogers Hummel argues that the Russian people would have been better off during WW2 if they had abjectly surrendered, similar to my point on Poland. He generalizes his point to argue for the disarmament of governments, even unilaterally and in the face of hostile regimes.
  • griffin13
    An excellent post, Will, one of the best that I can remember.

    "Liberty is best loved when it is loved because it is good — because it makes possible a rightful order. Liberty is neglected when it is loved merely because it’s what we, the folks in these parts, happen to tell each other we love."

    This is very true. However, do you think that American patriotism, perhaps uniquely so in the world, reinforces the belief that liberty is good? The high point of our national anthem, after all, is "land of the free." For the last century, my reading of history is that the US has been the most consistently free nation, and the most consistent defender of liberty, in the world. I think this is both the cause and source of much American patriotism; they are mutually reinforcing.

    Does patriotism also foster militarism? Yes, sometimes--especially on the right. I would still argue that American patriotism is, on net, good for liberty here and abroad.
  • Aaron S., we may like the Civil Rights Movement for various reasons, but there's no need to bring patriotism into the picture. A significant number of the people involved were communists (Saul Alinsky calls anyone who says otherwise a liar) whose loyalty was toward a different country.

    Big_Roy, I'll dissent on Polish patriotism. The countries that simply capitulated to the Nazis fared much better than ones that put up a serious fight. It's possible that their plans for Poland were always bloodier than those for other countries, but with a non-trivial probability multiplied by huge number of deaths I'm getting an expected value of many unnecessary lives. I earlier made this argument here. To be extra dislikeable, I'll say that languages die out all the time. As long as a single academic fluent in it is around to decipher old material, there's no reason to bemoan their disappearance. Also, soldiers don't die for the love of their country or any other ideal. They do it for their comrades in arms. Appeals to ideals unfortunately the armies mobilized in the first place. There's a Hansonian near/far angle here.
  • Aaron S
    My point is that patriotism can and should mean more than simple militarism. The language of American exceptionalism is frequently invoked to justify the struggle for civil and political rights in this country. Sure, we can talk about universal rights and whatnot, but at the practical end, those rights are guaranteed by the nation. International communism didn't get anyone anything - that's how national socialism came to be to successful.

    In other words, it's a patriotic statement by a civil rights leader to call for America to fulfill its promise of equality. It's a statement of belief in a moral/national identity.

  • Was the language used to justify said struggles more likely to draw on American exceptionalism or universal principles? I think the latter, so there is a continuity between the civil rights movement and the anti-colonial/anti-apartheid movements. Equality was not promised in America (a timocracy at its founding), it was in the Soviet Union. Compare gender in the two countries, it is the USSR that was clearly more egalitarian in that respect. The Bolsheviks were disproportionately supported by ethnic minorities (Latvians, Jews, Georgians) because they promised to erase the ethnic distinctions of the Tsarist era, and they did indeed reward those supporters with high positions in the new regime (groups which didn't go along such as the Cossack military caste got the short-end of the stick of course).

    National socialists gained in electoral strength in Weimar Germany at the same time that communists did. It was the liberal center which was giving way, leaving nationalism the only viable alternative to communism.
  • Big_Roy
    Poland has a very long tradition of national spirit, much older than 1939. I wasn't just referring to the Nazis, the Czechs seemed to do fine in WWII and they were hardly heroic, but Czech nationhood was immensely boosted by a much longer history of resistance (Hussites, the Thirty Years War, etc...). But with a longer view of history I think my point holds very well. An awful lot of "nations" in Europe died when they lost sovereignty, and the ones that survived all did because of resistance. And outside of Europe even more cultures have died out because of lack of "patriotic" feeling or willingness to resist.
  • Steve C
    This is a ridiculous just-so story.
  • Big_Roy
    It may be ridiculous, I'm not a huge fan of nationalism, but then I speak English and am a citizen of the most culturally powerful state that ever existed. Homogenization of culture goes almost entirely my way, for the time being. Personally I'd find it extremely convenient if all foreigners lost their language and culture, the benefits to me would probably outweigh any losses for me. I can read "Madame Bovary" in translation, and never have had to "waste" all those years learning French, but if I was French I would feel very differently about it. I might even be willing to die for it. And while that is irrational, if you view culture as a sort of Darwinian thing in itself, like the idea of memes, then it makes a lot of sense for people to defend their own set of memes that could be defined as "culture."

    If your problem with my argument is that cultural identity isn't essential, how do you account for the almost universal acceptance of the idea of "national feeling" in early modern European history.

    When the French peasantry rose against the English during the Hundred Years War, they were rising up and dying to replace one set of exploitative feudal lords with another. It wasn't rational to follow Joan of Arc. The same can be said for a lot of other countries history. It was the willingness of people to die for this sort of cultural chauvinism that created these countries.

    So I think that Nationalism and Patriotism are a lot more complicated than something purely evil. They are adaptive traits that have over history derived benefit the people who acquire them. Hopefully someday we will no longer need them, but they exist for a reason and surrendering this ability before everyone else does could be a form of cultural suicide.
  • Steve
    I should have explained myself better, your argument rests on textbook hindsight bias.

    Anyone with any familiarly with history (in general, or the particulars of WW2 specifically) understands the highly contingent nature of how things actually play out. In an earlier thread someone attempted to compare British vs French resistance in WW2. The British were heroic, the French suffered from insufficient patriotism.

    Or you might point to the body of water between Germany and Britain. And maybe conclude that any group of people under threat will resist and counterattack, will do so if those are practical courses of action.
  • JOR
    "Also, soldiers don't die for the love of their country or any other ideal. They do it for their comrades in arms."

    Even this misses the mark. Soldiers typically die while trying very hard to not get killed (often by attempting with varying level of competence to kill other people). They don't usually die "for" their countries, or for liberty, or even for their comrades. They die because they make a mistake, or because they are unlucky.
  • Big_Roy
    Personally I think World War I was a terrible mistake for the US, and did permanent damage to our freedom, but I also think patriotism/nationalism is very useful to defend a society. I think Goldberg is right that most soldiers don't sacrifice themselves willingly for abstract ideas, but rather because of a sort of "irrational" love for their country/nation/group etc...

    The fact that this human tendency toward patriotism can be used for bad or even evil purposes does not diminish its value for the society as a whole in other circumstances. The Patriotism of Poles who died for the cause of Poland, even when the governments of Poland were really not very pleasant or liberal, is one of the main reasons the Polish language and culture has survived. The patriotic attachment of a Pole to Poland is really the attachment to the preservation of their cultural context. If they didn't have Patriotism, Poland, and Polish culture might have been extinguished, and certainly would have been diminished.

    The United States' history of being an isolated and powerful big fish in whatever pond it happened to be in, hasn't faced these choices, but for many nations it is the communal desire for preservation of their culture, their very way of relating to the world, that has perpetuated it.
  • Steve C
    This is excellent.

    My sense is anyone who finds Will's argument compelling is in a small minority, hopelessly swimming against the tide - a brutish faith in country, mental eliding of the real cost of war - a feeling that partly defines Americanness. My bet is Americans will never move far off that consensus.

    We'll be attacked again, and there will be wars, and in the run-up to those wars war skeptics will have very little influence over the decision to go to war. It'll keep happening over and over as long as we have a few Army divisions and aircraft carriers freed up.
  • y81
    I think that this Wilkinsonian idea of liberty (with which I am in about 90% accord) is almost entirely culturally and historically determined. Its goodness wouldn't be obvious to the overwhelming majority of human beings who have existed. So to hypostasize it as some natural, intuitively perceptible good requires a rather blinkered viewpoint.

    Also, I think that the invasion of Iraq has turned out rather well, on the whole. What would have happened if we hadn't invaded? I don't know, and neither does Mr. Wilkinson. It would be best, therefore, to behave in a principled fashion and follow what is clearly the best policy when evaluated a priori: (i) we, the citizens, will collectively decide when to go to war; (ii) given that victory is always better than defeat, once we have decided to go to war, we will take all steps necessary to ensure that every war ends in victory; and (iii) given that victory is impossible without military valor, we will always honor each of our soldiers. Only the unprincipled and the self-indulgent will refuse by these principles, on which everyone would agree if negotiating a social contract.
  • ljm
    What would have happened if we hadn't invaded? I don't know, and neither does Mr. Wilkinson.

    Well, we know that Sadaam wouldn't and couldn't have attacked us. We know that many thousands of people who are now dead would be alive.

    (i) we, the citizens, will collectively decide when to go to war;

    But we live in a Republic, where representatives decide.

    (ii) given that victory is always better than defeat, once we have decided to go to war, we will take all steps necessary to ensure that every war ends in victory;

    Victory for the aggressor in an unjustified war is better?

    (iii) given that victory is impossible without military valor, we will always honor each of our soldiers.

    Even the ones who commit atrocities? Are all soldiers the same and deserving of honor?

    Only the unprincipled and the self-indulgent will refuse by these principles, on which everyone would agree if negotiating a social contract.

    It could be said that only authoritarians and statist militarists will abide by these (ridiculously broad) principles.
  • y81
    "We live in a Republic, where representatives decide."

    Were you one of those kids in fifth grade who was always raising his hand when the teacher referred to the U.S. as a democracy and bursting out: "But, Miss Ricca, we live in a republic, not a democracy"? Because that is very advanced in fifth grade, but among adults it is common to refer to the United States, France, etc. as "democracies" with "popular" government, and only in very specialized contexts (which this is not) is it germane to point out that these are technically "republics" with "representative" governments.
  • tim
    Further, the Bush administration made clear its threat to go to war in Iraq if Congress would not give him approval. He did not even think he needed the approval of the representatives. That's hardly a republic. Indeed, it is a democracy only in the Schmittian sense where the president represents the will of the people rather than parliament (and come to think of it: Bush couldn't even claim to have a popular mandate from a presidential election at that time!)
  • Is this another version of 'we couldn't possibly have known in advance that invading Iraq was a mistake'?

    Because I am done with that.
  • Aaron S.
    I think that if you restrict the word "patriotism" to be mean "militarism" you've conceded to a very right-wing world-view. Remember, dissent is the highest form of patriotism. Was the Civil Rights movement patriotic? Or was it just identity politics?

  • The value of liberal rights and a liberal order are clear enough that free people do not more than a dram of nationalist fortification to rise to liberty’s defense.
    That sounds like an empirical statement and I don't know if it's true. Liberty often seems rather unpopular. Classical liberalism dates back to a less democratic age, when politics transitioned to the realm of the mass public the only option in many nations was fascism or communism. I think liberty's only hope lies in finding a way around the public which is more easily swayed by mystic nationalism i.e the "illiberal liberalism" of seasteading.
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