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	<title>Comments on: Now Let Us Praise Results-Facilitating Virtue!</title>
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	<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/11/20/now-let-us-praise-results-facilitating-virtue/</link>
	<description>The Sweet Release of Reason</description>
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		<title>By: Don Arthur</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/11/20/now-let-us-praise-results-facilitating-virtue/comment-page-1/#comment-594433</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Arthur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:07:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3884#comment-594433</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s some evidence for markvc1&#039;s position. Psychologist Carol Dweck shows how children can be handicapped by the belief that intelligence is a fixed trait (see &#039;Self-Theories&#039;).&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;On the issue of character, philosopher John Doris argues persuasively that there&#039;s surprisingly little empirical support for the idea of character. (see Lack of Character: Personality and Moral Behavior&#039;). &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The belief that success and failure are due to stable traits is one of the things that continues to disadvantage women.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Instead of looking at the environment, defenders of the status quo point to the historical record of women&#039;s achievement in art, science, war, political leadership (etc) and conclude that women lack the traits necessary for performance. Similar arguments have been made about blacks and other groups.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;For members of dominant groups who favor hierarchies of power and status, trait theories are advantageous.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Not only to do they enhance self-esteem (&quot;I&#039;m successful therefore I must be intelligent and virtuous&quot;) and justify inequalities, but if you can persuade subordinate groups to buy into the theory, they&#039;ll be much less of threat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#39;s some evidence for markvc1&#39;s position. Psychologist Carol Dweck shows how children can be handicapped by the belief that intelligence is a fixed trait (see &#39;Self-Theories&#39;).</p>
<p>On the issue of character, philosopher John Doris argues persuasively that there&#39;s surprisingly little empirical support for the idea of character. (see Lack of Character: Personality and Moral Behavior&#39;). </p>
<p>The belief that success and failure are due to stable traits is one of the things that continues to disadvantage women.</p>
<p>Instead of looking at the environment, defenders of the status quo point to the historical record of women&#39;s achievement in art, science, war, political leadership (etc) and conclude that women lack the traits necessary for performance. Similar arguments have been made about blacks and other groups.</p>
<p>For members of dominant groups who favor hierarchies of power and status, trait theories are advantageous.</p>
<p>Not only to do they enhance self-esteem (&#8220;I&#39;m successful therefore I must be intelligent and virtuous&#8221;) and justify inequalities, but if you can persuade subordinate groups to buy into the theory, they&#39;ll be much less of threat.</p>
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		<title>By: markvc1</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/11/20/now-let-us-praise-results-facilitating-virtue/comment-page-1/#comment-594421</link>
		<dc:creator>markvc1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:23:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3884#comment-594421</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s a great mistake to praise a child for being intelligent, for example.   Instead, give praise for asking good questions.     A child who has been praised for intelligence will attempt to maintain that aspect by refraining from asking potentially ignorance-revealing questions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#39;s a great mistake to praise a child for being intelligent, for example.   Instead, give praise for asking good questions.     A child who has been praised for intelligence will attempt to maintain that aspect by refraining from asking potentially ignorance-revealing questions.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/11/20/now-let-us-praise-results-facilitating-virtue/comment-page-1/#comment-594411</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 13:54:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3884#comment-594411</guid>
		<description>Well if we had to wait until the end of the universe to see the ultimate results we could never praise anyone for results before then.  Input vs. output is a matter of degree; I&#039;m arguing to move more toward the output direction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well if we had to wait until the end of the universe to see the ultimate results we could never praise anyone for results before then.  Input vs. output is a matter of degree; I&#39;m arguing to move more toward the output direction.</p>
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		<title>By: rimfax</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/11/20/now-let-us-praise-results-facilitating-virtue/comment-page-1/#comment-594373</link>
		<dc:creator>rimfax</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 14:45:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3884#comment-594373</guid>
		<description>Re: Eric H&#039;s Hayek quote:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The market &lt;i&gt;should&lt;/i&gt; reward results.  By my argument, peers should reward sincere efforts/intentions.  These are separate facets of life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: Eric H&#39;s Hayek quote:</p>
<p>The market <i>should</i> reward results.  By my argument, peers should reward sincere efforts/intentions.  These are separate facets of life.</p>
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		<title>By: rimfax</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/11/20/now-let-us-praise-results-facilitating-virtue/comment-page-1/#comment-594372</link>
		<dc:creator>rimfax</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 14:39:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3884#comment-594372</guid>
		<description>Over the summer there was a steady cascade of study results concluding that rewarding effort over results leads to better personal outcomes.  (I recall seeing much of it over at the Freakonomics Blog.)  This suggests that Hanson is onto something, and perhaps doesn&#039;t go far enough, in disconnecting character signalling from peer rewards.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Out on the hypothetical limb, rewarding character may provide incentive to maintain a good character perception, but it may also function to disincentivise reformation of bad character reputations and demoralize poor signallers who may have excellent, but unnoticed, characters.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Rewarding good results provides a broader opportunity for reward among all peers, but still demoralizes those who are poor at judging how to obtain good results or good &lt;i&gt;visible&lt;/i&gt; results.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Rewarding good efforts, or even merely sincere-appearing effort, broadens it even further and also largely disconnects reward from aptitude.  The poor-character peer can still gain rewards regardless of reputation, and he will only receive those rewards while he is perceived as making sincere efforts.  More importantly, the inept peer can gain rewards, even in the face of negative results.  Only through selt-improvement can he continue to be perceived as sincere, but once he is rewarded he is already enrolled in the rewards system, as opposed to being completely excluded from it for his own self-aware limitations.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;This certainly smacks of dumbing down peer rewards for good results, but as you pointed out, broader participation in the system yields a better system and broader lack of participation or even counter-participation undermines the efforts of those in the system.  Does the incorporation of poor reputations or poor performers actually harm the system&#039;s efforts overall?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Over the summer there was a steady cascade of study results concluding that rewarding effort over results leads to better personal outcomes.  (I recall seeing much of it over at the Freakonomics Blog.)  This suggests that Hanson is onto something, and perhaps doesn&#39;t go far enough, in disconnecting character signalling from peer rewards.</p>
<p>Out on the hypothetical limb, rewarding character may provide incentive to maintain a good character perception, but it may also function to disincentivise reformation of bad character reputations and demoralize poor signallers who may have excellent, but unnoticed, characters.</p>
<p>Rewarding good results provides a broader opportunity for reward among all peers, but still demoralizes those who are poor at judging how to obtain good results or good <i>visible</i> results.</p>
<p>Rewarding good efforts, or even merely sincere-appearing effort, broadens it even further and also largely disconnects reward from aptitude.  The poor-character peer can still gain rewards regardless of reputation, and he will only receive those rewards while he is perceived as making sincere efforts.  More importantly, the inept peer can gain rewards, even in the face of negative results.  Only through selt-improvement can he continue to be perceived as sincere, but once he is rewarded he is already enrolled in the rewards system, as opposed to being completely excluded from it for his own self-aware limitations.</p>
<p>This certainly smacks of dumbing down peer rewards for good results, but as you pointed out, broader participation in the system yields a better system and broader lack of participation or even counter-participation undermines the efforts of those in the system.  Does the incorporation of poor reputations or poor performers actually harm the system&#39;s efforts overall?</p>
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		<title>By: Secured Loan Debt Consolidation â€“ Pros and Cons of Consolidating &#8230; &#124; Consolidation Finance Wisdom</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/11/20/now-let-us-praise-results-facilitating-virtue/comment-page-1/#comment-594369</link>
		<dc:creator>Secured Loan Debt Consolidation â€“ Pros and Cons of Consolidating &#8230; &#124; Consolidation Finance Wisdom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 12:16:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3884#comment-594369</guid>
		<description>[...] Now Let Us Praise Results-Facilitating Virtue! [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Now Let Us Praise Results-Facilitating Virtue! [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Eric H</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/11/20/now-let-us-praise-results-facilitating-virtue/comment-page-1/#comment-594366</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 10:23:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3884#comment-594366</guid>
		<description>I find this &lt;A HREF = &quot;http://www.thefreemanonline.org/headline/the-dangers-of-the-myth-of-merit/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;post at FEE by Steve Horwitz&lt;/A&gt; complimentary to Robin&#039;s post.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Horwitz talks about the danger of the &quot;myth of merit.&quot; I recall Hayek saying somewhere that &quot;the market does not reward intentions, it rewards results.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find this <a HREF = "http://www.thefreemanonline.org/headline/the-dangers-of-the-myth-of-merit/" rel="nofollow">post at FEE by Steve Horwitz</a> complimentary to Robin&#39;s post.</p>
<p>Horwitz talks about the danger of the &#8220;myth of merit.&#8221; I recall Hayek saying somewhere that &#8220;the market does not reward intentions, it rewards results.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Drake</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/11/20/now-let-us-praise-results-facilitating-virtue/comment-page-1/#comment-594365</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Drake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 09:04:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3884#comment-594365</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t want to be defined merely by who I am.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#39;t want to be defined merely by who I am.</p>
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		<title>By: Y81</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/11/20/now-let-us-praise-results-facilitating-virtue/comment-page-1/#comment-594362</link>
		<dc:creator>Y81</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 00:54:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3884#comment-594362</guid>
		<description>&quot;You could say &quot;Larry spent lots of time with his kids&quot; as a thing he did, that would be a do not an is praise. &quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Ooh, but the original Hanson comment suggested praising people for RESULTS.  As we all know, a parent can spend lots of time with his or her kids, and things can still not work out.  So while Wilkinson thinks that we should say, with mingled admiration and regret, &quot;Larry is a good father, but his son grew up bad,&quot; Hanson appears to think we should say dismissively, &quot;Larry is a loser, his son grew up bad.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;You could say &#8220;Larry spent lots of time with his kids&#8221; as a thing he did, that would be a do not an is praise. &#8220;</p>
<p>Ooh, but the original Hanson comment suggested praising people for RESULTS.  As we all know, a parent can spend lots of time with his or her kids, and things can still not work out.  So while Wilkinson thinks that we should say, with mingled admiration and regret, &#8220;Larry is a good father, but his son grew up bad,&#8221; Hanson appears to think we should say dismissively, &#8220;Larry is a loser, his son grew up bad.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Overcoming Bias : Praise Results</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/11/20/now-let-us-praise-results-facilitating-virtue/comment-page-1/#comment-594358</link>
		<dc:creator>Overcoming Bias : Praise Results</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 00:25:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3884#comment-594358</guid>
		<description>[...] 7p: Will Wilkinson comments here.  SHARETHIS.addEntry({ title: &quot;Praise Results&quot;, url: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 7p: Will Wilkinson comments here.  SHARETHIS.addEntry({ title: &#8220;Praise Results&#8221;, url: [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Virtue, Economy and the Self: 5 Links &#171; Stockerblog</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/11/20/now-let-us-praise-results-facilitating-virtue/comment-page-1/#comment-594357</link>
		<dc:creator>Virtue, Economy and the Self: 5 Links &#171; Stockerblog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 22:51:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3884#comment-594357</guid>
		<description>[...] about in the most immediate sense from Will Wilkinson: a post at his blog Will Wilkinson, entitled Now Let us Praise Results-Facilitating Virtue, dated 20th November 2009. Wilkinson is an economics and public policy commentator, with a background in philosophy.  He is [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] about in the most immediate sense from Will Wilkinson: a post at his blog Will Wilkinson, entitled Now Let us Praise Results-Facilitating Virtue, dated 20th November 2009. Wilkinson is an economics and public policy commentator, with a background in philosophy.  He is [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Eric H</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/11/20/now-let-us-praise-results-facilitating-virtue/comment-page-1/#comment-594361</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 22:02:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3884#comment-594361</guid>
		<description>It makes more sense to discuss and promote behaviors you think are worthwhile, rather than praise individuals in the third person.  Someone can spend a lot of time with their kids while abusing them.  None of us are capable of making absolutely true statements about why people do or don&#039;t do certain things, or the intricate details about family dynamics such as fatherhood.  There are children involved with priority sets different from the father.  A good father to you might be an overbearing busybody to his children.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It makes more sense to discuss and promote behaviors you think are worthwhile, rather than praise individuals in the third person.  Someone can spend a lot of time with their kids while abusing them.  None of us are capable of making absolutely true statements about why people do or don&#39;t do certain things, or the intricate details about family dynamics such as fatherhood.  There are children involved with priority sets different from the father.  A good father to you might be an overbearing busybody to his children.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/11/20/now-let-us-praise-results-facilitating-virtue/comment-page-1/#comment-594359</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 21:24:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3884#comment-594359</guid>
		<description>You could say &quot;Larry spent lots of time with his kids&quot; as a thing he did, that would be a do not an is praise. You don&#039;t have to trace the whole causal chain to the end of the universe after all.   And thanks for the praise!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You could say &#8220;Larry spent lots of time with his kids&#8221; as a thing he did, that would be a do not an is praise. You don&#39;t have to trace the whole causal chain to the end of the universe after all.   And thanks for the praise!</p>
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