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	<title>Comments on: Hey, I Can&#8217;t Actually Quite Imagine a World in Which Things Are Exactly as Different as They Would Need to Be to Give Me What I Want, but It Would Be Neat if I Could!!</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/11/09/hey-i-cant-actually-quite-imagine-a-world-in-which-things-are-exactly-as-different-as-the-need-to-be-to-give-me-what-i-want-but-it-would-be-neat-if-i-could/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/11/09/hey-i-cant-actually-quite-imagine-a-world-in-which-things-are-exactly-as-different-as-the-need-to-be-to-give-me-what-i-want-but-it-would-be-neat-if-i-could/</link>
	<description>The Sweet Release of Reason</description>
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		<title>By: sarahrc</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/11/09/hey-i-cant-actually-quite-imagine-a-world-in-which-things-are-exactly-as-different-as-the-need-to-be-to-give-me-what-i-want-but-it-would-be-neat-if-i-could/comment-page-1/#comment-594334</link>
		<dc:creator>sarahrc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 16:19:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3866#comment-594334</guid>
		<description>Good point.  I think this is why there&#039;s suddenly been a flurry of dialogue about procedural rules.  Suddenly progressives are wondering &quot;Does this mean that the people don&#039;t actually want universal health care?&quot; and coming up with the answer &quot;no, it&#039;s the rules.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Thoughts:&lt;br&gt;(a) and (b) are, of course, not unrelated.  We have a political structure that makes it hard for the government to do big new things through Congress.  The Klein/Yglesias argument might be restated as &quot;The Constitution was written for people a lot more anti-statist than we are today,&quot; which I think is true.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point.  I think this is why there&#39;s suddenly been a flurry of dialogue about procedural rules.  Suddenly progressives are wondering &#8220;Does this mean that the people don&#39;t actually want universal health care?&#8221; and coming up with the answer &#8220;no, it&#39;s the rules.&#8221;</p>
<p>Thoughts:<br />(a) and (b) are, of course, not unrelated.  We have a political structure that makes it hard for the government to do big new things through Congress.  The Klein/Yglesias argument might be restated as &#8220;The Constitution was written for people a lot more anti-statist than we are today,&#8221; which I think is true.</p>
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		<title>By: Kent</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/11/09/hey-i-cant-actually-quite-imagine-a-world-in-which-things-are-exactly-as-different-as-the-need-to-be-to-give-me-what-i-want-but-it-would-be-neat-if-i-could/comment-page-1/#comment-594331</link>
		<dc:creator>Kent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 21:30:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3866#comment-594331</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think these posts are really &quot;arguments for the abolition of the Senate.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;As I read them, Ezra&#039;s and Matt&#039;s point is that, given the following options:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;The United States, virtually alone among industrialized nations, does not have universal health care. This is properly understood as:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;(a) Americans are uniquely committed to libertarian / conservative / anti-statist policies generally, and/or uniquely distrust the government when it comes to provision of health care;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;(b) America&#039;s bicameral political system, combined with the rules of the Senate, makes it uniquely difficult to pass major legislation of a type that is similar to provision of universal health care.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Matt and Ezra are arguing for (b), and thus against (a). &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I think it&#039;s an interesting argument and well worth considering. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;As for the &quot;Republican ideas would also be more likely to pass&quot; retort:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;(i) maybe so;&lt;br&gt;(ii) if so, it doesn&#039;t undercut the point Matt and Ezra are making, but only the points that their critics think they ought to be making;&lt;br&gt;(iii) the Democrats have not been nearly as pro-active w/r/t using the filibuster, which gave the Repubs the ability to pass major legislation with only 50 votes in the Senate under GWB. The Republicans appear to be uniquely good at obstructionism ... or the Dems uniquely bad. Not sure which.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;So a question for Paul Z and others: what do you think a unicameral legislature would have allowed the Repubs to accomplish, that they didn&#039;t, over the period 2000-2008?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#39;t think these posts are really &#8220;arguments for the abolition of the Senate.&#8221;</p>
<p>As I read them, Ezra&#39;s and Matt&#39;s point is that, given the following options:</p>
<p>&#8220;The United States, virtually alone among industrialized nations, does not have universal health care. This is properly understood as:</p>
<p>(a) Americans are uniquely committed to libertarian / conservative / anti-statist policies generally, and/or uniquely distrust the government when it comes to provision of health care;</p>
<p>(b) America&#39;s bicameral political system, combined with the rules of the Senate, makes it uniquely difficult to pass major legislation of a type that is similar to provision of universal health care.&#8221;</p>
<p>Matt and Ezra are arguing for (b), and thus against (a). </p>
<p>I think it&#39;s an interesting argument and well worth considering. </p>
<p>As for the &#8220;Republican ideas would also be more likely to pass&#8221; retort:</p>
<p>(i) maybe so;<br />(ii) if so, it doesn&#39;t undercut the point Matt and Ezra are making, but only the points that their critics think they ought to be making;<br />(iii) the Democrats have not been nearly as pro-active w/r/t using the filibuster, which gave the Repubs the ability to pass major legislation with only 50 votes in the Senate under GWB. The Republicans appear to be uniquely good at obstructionism &#8230; or the Dems uniquely bad. Not sure which.</p>
<p>So a question for Paul Z and others: what do you think a unicameral legislature would have allowed the Repubs to accomplish, that they didn&#39;t, over the period 2000-2008?</p>
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		<title>By: Hunter</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/11/09/hey-i-cant-actually-quite-imagine-a-world-in-which-things-are-exactly-as-different-as-the-need-to-be-to-give-me-what-i-want-but-it-would-be-neat-if-i-could/comment-page-1/#comment-594312</link>
		<dc:creator>Hunter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:39:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3866#comment-594312</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s worth pointing out that Klein, at least, was all in favor of ending the filibuster a few years ago when the Republicans had power and were threatening to do so to get some judge or another appointed. I don&#039;t know what Yglesias&#039;s stated position was then...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#39;s worth pointing out that Klein, at least, was all in favor of ending the filibuster a few years ago when the Republicans had power and were threatening to do so to get some judge or another appointed. I don&#39;t know what Yglesias&#39;s stated position was then&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Zrimsek</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/11/09/hey-i-cant-actually-quite-imagine-a-world-in-which-things-are-exactly-as-different-as-the-need-to-be-to-give-me-what-i-want-but-it-would-be-neat-if-i-could/comment-page-1/#comment-594306</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Zrimsek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 11:04:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3866#comment-594306</guid>
		<description>Guys, you can whine about the systemic inertia that keeps your majorities from passing your favorite reforms, or you can crow about the systemic inertia that keeps the other side&#039;s majorities from repealing your favorite reforms. But not both.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Guys, you can whine about the systemic inertia that keeps your majorities from passing your favorite reforms, or you can crow about the systemic inertia that keeps the other side&#39;s majorities from repealing your favorite reforms. But not both.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Johnson</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/11/09/hey-i-cant-actually-quite-imagine-a-world-in-which-things-are-exactly-as-different-as-the-need-to-be-to-give-me-what-i-want-but-it-would-be-neat-if-i-could/comment-page-1/#comment-594301</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 00:26:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3866#comment-594301</guid>
		<description>I want to know what your constitution would look like Will. If you could what would you change or would you start from scratch? Do you like the idea of proportional representation in the House or the Senate or both? Would you keep it a republic? What voting system would you use? Term limits? The courts?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I want to know what your constitution would look like Will. If you could what would you change or would you start from scratch? Do you like the idea of proportional representation in the House or the Senate or both? Would you keep it a republic? What voting system would you use? Term limits? The courts?</p>
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		<title>By: lemmycaution</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/11/09/hey-i-cant-actually-quite-imagine-a-world-in-which-things-are-exactly-as-different-as-the-need-to-be-to-give-me-what-i-want-but-it-would-be-neat-if-i-could/comment-page-1/#comment-594300</link>
		<dc:creator>lemmycaution</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:53:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3866#comment-594300</guid>
		<description>I agree with Gherald L.   &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The countries that do have universal healthcare don&#039;t give it up; and, they don&#039;t tend to have the kind of supermajority requirements that the US does.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Gherald L.   </p>
<p>The countries that do have universal healthcare don&#39;t give it up; and, they don&#39;t tend to have the kind of supermajority requirements that the US does.</p>
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		<title>By: John V</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/11/09/hey-i-cant-actually-quite-imagine-a-world-in-which-things-are-exactly-as-different-as-the-need-to-be-to-give-me-what-i-want-but-it-would-be-neat-if-i-could/comment-page-1/#comment-594293</link>
		<dc:creator>John V</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 13:39:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3866#comment-594293</guid>
		<description>This syndrome/blind spot that Ezra and Matt both suffer from affects a lot of what they think in the most general sense. I see it from too many modern liberals  when any discussion of economics and fiscal policy come up. They like to change one thing and pretend everything else can be held constant for the sake of their argument....going backward and forward.  It doesn&#039;t work that way. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I once read a piece (a couple of years ago) where the author remarked on politicians&#039; and political writers&#039;  general behavior in the discussion of foreign policy. For some reason, this area is more likely to avoid such sweeping magical and one dimensional switcheroos of factors because people are more ready to acknowledge the &quot;butterfly effect&quot; in that area. Of course, he also proposes that this correct perspective is done for the wrong reason. His idea is that people avoid ignoring the butter fly effect  in FP because our government doesn&#039;t control the realities created by other governments&#039; or countries&#039; actions. I agree with him that this simply isn&#039;t a good reason to view the matter more correctly.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;In closing, let us stay for a sec in their one dimensional, &quot;non-intercausal&quot;, chain-reaction-free zone: &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I wonder how many times Matt and Ezra thanked the maker during most of the 2000s when the GOP had control of both houses and things they didn&#039;t like didn&#039;t pass.  I was quite relieved myself on many instances. I often wish everything needed an 75% majority. We&#039;d see some serious rule changes then.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This syndrome/blind spot that Ezra and Matt both suffer from affects a lot of what they think in the most general sense. I see it from too many modern liberals  when any discussion of economics and fiscal policy come up. They like to change one thing and pretend everything else can be held constant for the sake of their argument&#8230;.going backward and forward.  It doesn&#39;t work that way. </p>
<p>I once read a piece (a couple of years ago) where the author remarked on politicians&#39; and political writers&#39;  general behavior in the discussion of foreign policy. For some reason, this area is more likely to avoid such sweeping magical and one dimensional switcheroos of factors because people are more ready to acknowledge the &#8220;butterfly effect&#8221; in that area. Of course, he also proposes that this correct perspective is done for the wrong reason. His idea is that people avoid ignoring the butter fly effect  in FP because our government doesn&#39;t control the realities created by other governments&#39; or countries&#39; actions. I agree with him that this simply isn&#39;t a good reason to view the matter more correctly.</p>
<p>In closing, let us stay for a sec in their one dimensional, &#8220;non-intercausal&#8221;, chain-reaction-free zone: </p>
<p>I wonder how many times Matt and Ezra thanked the maker during most of the 2000s when the GOP had control of both houses and things they didn&#39;t like didn&#39;t pass.  I was quite relieved myself on many instances. I often wish everything needed an 75% majority. We&#39;d see some serious rule changes then.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Weininger</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/11/09/hey-i-cant-actually-quite-imagine-a-world-in-which-things-are-exactly-as-different-as-the-need-to-be-to-give-me-what-i-want-but-it-would-be-neat-if-i-could/comment-page-1/#comment-594288</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Weininger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 22:53:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3866#comment-594288</guid>
		<description>Does Matt realize, do you think, how much he is inadvertently strengthening the argument for the Senate? Or does he really believe that anything at all which 50.1% of The Holy People want should be done, regardless of how much the other 49.9% hates it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does Matt realize, do you think, how much he is inadvertently strengthening the argument for the Senate? Or does he really believe that anything at all which 50.1% of The Holy People want should be done, regardless of how much the other 49.9% hates it?</p>
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		<title>By: y81</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/11/09/hey-i-cant-actually-quite-imagine-a-world-in-which-things-are-exactly-as-different-as-the-need-to-be-to-give-me-what-i-want-but-it-would-be-neat-if-i-could/comment-page-1/#comment-594280</link>
		<dc:creator>y81</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:41:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3866#comment-594280</guid>
		<description>Douglas Hofstadter wrote some very funny stuff (I think it&#039;s in &quot;Godel, Escher, Bach&quot;) about counterfactuals.  If we had only been playing football, then that A-Rod hit would have been an incomplete pass, and the Angels would have won.  Or something.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Anyway, if we had a unicameral legislature, Bill Clinton would have been removed from office.  So would Andrew Johnson, for that matter.  All black people would still be Republicans (but urban Jews would still, in my counterfactual, be Democrats), and Matt Yglesias&#039;s life would be constant disappointment, as his party would be confined to handful of urban enclaves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Douglas Hofstadter wrote some very funny stuff (I think it&#39;s in &#8220;Godel, Escher, Bach&#8221;) about counterfactuals.  If we had only been playing football, then that A-Rod hit would have been an incomplete pass, and the Angels would have won.  Or something.</p>
<p>Anyway, if we had a unicameral legislature, Bill Clinton would have been removed from office.  So would Andrew Johnson, for that matter.  All black people would still be Republicans (but urban Jews would still, in my counterfactual, be Democrats), and Matt Yglesias&#39;s life would be constant disappointment, as his party would be confined to handful of urban enclaves.</p>
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		<title>By: jj</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/11/09/hey-i-cant-actually-quite-imagine-a-world-in-which-things-are-exactly-as-different-as-the-need-to-be-to-give-me-what-i-want-but-it-would-be-neat-if-i-could/comment-page-1/#comment-594274</link>
		<dc:creator>jj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 01:04:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3866#comment-594274</guid>
		<description>Judging from bloggingheads, MY in short pants is not the best image in the world. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Is your position that counterfactuals are silly or just this particular counterfactual is silly? Or both?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;It strikes me that you&#039;ve probably gone on at length about this subject somewhere, and if that&#039;s the case you need not rehash it for my sake.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Judging from bloggingheads, MY in short pants is not the best image in the world. </p>
<p>Is your position that counterfactuals are silly or just this particular counterfactual is silly? Or both?</p>
<p>It strikes me that you&#39;ve probably gone on at length about this subject somewhere, and if that&#39;s the case you need not rehash it for my sake.</p>
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		<title>By: Gherald L.</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/11/09/hey-i-cant-actually-quite-imagine-a-world-in-which-things-are-exactly-as-different-as-the-need-to-be-to-give-me-what-i-want-but-it-would-be-neat-if-i-could/comment-page-1/#comment-594267</link>
		<dc:creator>Gherald L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 00:58:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3866#comment-594267</guid>
		<description>Obviously more things would have been different the longer back a change to a unicameral legislature happened.  You could take it all the way back to the 1780s if you&#039;re so inclined.  And if you assume other changes like proportional representation, things could be even more radically different today.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;But Yglesias&#039;s hypothetical isn&#039;t concerning itself with a full-on Butterfly Effect analysis--he&#039;s holding most of history constant to make a smaller point...&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Universal healthcare has been in the pipeline of liberal dreams for a long time.  It stands to reason that it would have probably happened by now if a supermajority weren&#039;t required.  And once you give voters something like that, it&#039;s really hard to take it way (see: Medicare), so it&#039;s also somewhat unlikely the opposition could have amassed its own 51% majority several cycles later to repeal it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obviously more things would have been different the longer back a change to a unicameral legislature happened.  You could take it all the way back to the 1780s if you&#39;re so inclined.  And if you assume other changes like proportional representation, things could be even more radically different today.</p>
<p>But Yglesias&#39;s hypothetical isn&#39;t concerning itself with a full-on Butterfly Effect analysis&#8211;he&#39;s holding most of history constant to make a smaller point&#8230;</p>
<p>Universal healthcare has been in the pipeline of liberal dreams for a long time.  It stands to reason that it would have probably happened by now if a supermajority weren&#39;t required.  And once you give voters something like that, it&#39;s really hard to take it way (see: Medicare), so it&#39;s also somewhat unlikely the opposition could have amassed its own 51% majority several cycles later to repeal it.</p>
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		<title>By: mfarmer</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/11/09/hey-i-cant-actually-quite-imagine-a-world-in-which-things-are-exactly-as-different-as-the-need-to-be-to-give-me-what-i-want-but-it-would-be-neat-if-i-could/comment-page-1/#comment-594273</link>
		<dc:creator>mfarmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 00:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3866#comment-594273</guid>
		<description>No, I wasn&#039;t accusing, but I saw it posted, then came back later and it was gone.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Oh well, I said something about Klein wanting a tyranny of the majority, unless the Republicans gain power, then it wouldn&#039;t do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, I wasn&#39;t accusing, but I saw it posted, then came back later and it was gone.</p>
<p>Oh well, I said something about Klein wanting a tyranny of the majority, unless the Republicans gain power, then it wouldn&#39;t do.</p>
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		<title>By: Gherald L.</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/11/09/hey-i-cant-actually-quite-imagine-a-world-in-which-things-are-exactly-as-different-as-the-need-to-be-to-give-me-what-i-want-but-it-would-be-neat-if-i-could/comment-page-1/#comment-594269</link>
		<dc:creator>Gherald L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 00:43:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3866#comment-594269</guid>
		<description>They&#039;ve made the objection in other forms, too.  The point of these posts is just to remind people that if  there were only one chamber with House-like rules, almost-universal health coverage could have signed into law by now (or conceivably, quite a few years ago).&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Bottom line, the Senate and its rules are the chief obstacle, rather than Obama&#039;s perceived lack of $FAVORITE_IDEOLOGICAL_BENT</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They&#39;ve made the objection in other forms, too.  The point of these posts is just to remind people that if  there were only one chamber with House-like rules, almost-universal health coverage could have signed into law by now (or conceivably, quite a few years ago).</p>
<p>Bottom line, the Senate and its rules are the chief obstacle, rather than Obama&#39;s perceived lack of $FAVORITE_IDEOLOGICAL_BENT</p>
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		<title>By: Will Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/11/09/hey-i-cant-actually-quite-imagine-a-world-in-which-things-are-exactly-as-different-as-the-need-to-be-to-give-me-what-i-want-but-it-would-be-neat-if-i-could/comment-page-1/#comment-594272</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 00:35:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3866#comment-594272</guid>
		<description>Hmm indeed. I don&#039;t mess with comments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm indeed. I don&#39;t mess with comments.</p>
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		<title>By: Will Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/11/09/hey-i-cant-actually-quite-imagine-a-world-in-which-things-are-exactly-as-different-as-the-need-to-be-to-give-me-what-i-want-but-it-would-be-neat-if-i-could/comment-page-1/#comment-594268</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 00:08:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3866#comment-594268</guid>
		<description>If the real objection is to conventional Senate rules, you have to admit that it&#039;s  strange to make this objection in the form of  an argument for the abolition of the Senate. No?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the real objection is to conventional Senate rules, you have to admit that it&#39;s  strange to make this objection in the form of  an argument for the abolition of the Senate. No?</p>
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