<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Liberty in Context</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/10/25/liberty-in-context/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/10/25/liberty-in-context/</link>
	<description>The Sweet Release of Reason</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 21 Mar 2010 13:11:04 -0700</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: Culture and/of liberty: Howley and Hayek &#171; Thinking Beyond Competition</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/10/25/liberty-in-context/comment-page-2/#comment-594425</link>
		<dc:creator>Culture and/of liberty: Howley and Hayek &#171; Thinking Beyond Competition</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 03:15:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3853#comment-594425</guid>
		<description>[...] Will Wilkinson responds to Ilya Somin (October 25) (NOTE: Wilkinson is Howley&#8217;s domestic partner). [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Will Wilkinson responds to Ilya Somin (October 25) (NOTE: Wilkinson is Howley&#8217;s domestic partner). [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jessica Wright</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/10/25/liberty-in-context/comment-page-2/#comment-594329</link>
		<dc:creator>Jessica Wright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 10:23:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3853#comment-594329</guid>
		<description>I completely agree with Kerry&#039;s argument and your explication of it.  I&#039;m doing some work (at LSE) on this subject as well &amp;  was glad to see other libertarians are considering these ideas &amp; expanding the debate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I completely agree with Kerry&#39;s argument and your explication of it.  I&#39;m doing some work (at LSE) on this subject as well &#038;  was glad to see other libertarians are considering these ideas &#038; expanding the debate.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Libertarians and Diversity (or lack thereof) &#171; The United States of Jamerica</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/10/25/liberty-in-context/comment-page-2/#comment-594251</link>
		<dc:creator>Libertarians and Diversity (or lack thereof) &#171; The United States of Jamerica</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 17:36:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3853#comment-594251</guid>
		<description>[...] any expansion of the state&#8217;s power.  In the process of defending Howley&#8217;s critique, Will Wilkinson notes that a fair number of libertarians don&#8217;t really seem to get the core substance of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] any expansion of the state&#8217;s power.  In the process of defending Howley&#8217;s critique, Will Wilkinson notes that a fair number of libertarians don&#8217;t really seem to get the core substance of [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: danisraeliuncensorednews</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/10/25/liberty-in-context/comment-page-2/#comment-594249</link>
		<dc:creator>danisraeliuncensorednews</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Nov 2009 19:47:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3853#comment-594249</guid>
		<description>Living in a culturally comfortable society is an important part of personal liberty. That&#039;s why we&#039;re arguing for liberal Israel as an association of culturally independent towns: some might ban Arabs while other would embrace them , and so on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Living in a culturally comfortable society is an important part of personal liberty. That&#39;s why we&#39;re arguing for liberal Israel as an association of culturally independent towns: some might ban Arabs while other would embrace them , and so on.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dain</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/10/25/liberty-in-context/comment-page-2/#comment-594245</link>
		<dc:creator>Dain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 02:50:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3853#comment-594245</guid>
		<description>I doubt most societies, historically or contemporarily, actually believe women to be &lt;i&gt;inferior&lt;/i&gt;. I&#039;d surmise that their conception of what constitutes woman&#039;s &quot;liberation&quot; (i.e. equality, or even &lt;i&gt;superiority&lt;/i&gt;) is just different from our own.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I doubt most societies, historically or contemporarily, actually believe women to be <i>inferior</i>. I&#39;d surmise that their conception of what constitutes woman&#39;s &#8220;liberation&#8221; (i.e. equality, or even <i>superiority</i>) is just different from our own.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Gorgias</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/10/25/liberty-in-context/comment-page-2/#comment-594243</link>
		<dc:creator>Gorgias</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 17:19:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3853#comment-594243</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s considerably more than an &quot;ick&quot; factor going on in worrying about the diminution of freedom that occurs within &quot;traditional&quot; societies or households.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#39;s considerably more than an &#8220;ick&#8221; factor going on in worrying about the diminution of freedom that occurs within &#8220;traditional&#8221; societies or households.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: famous people</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/10/25/liberty-in-context/comment-page-2/#comment-594242</link>
		<dc:creator>famous people</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 15:25:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3853#comment-594242</guid>
		<description>If they wanted to do a Bloggingheads with Todd Seavey, they would have done it long time ago.  But then the two of them wouldn&#039;t be able to parade as spokeswomen for libertarianism. Friggin impostors!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If they wanted to do a Bloggingheads with Todd Seavey, they would have done it long time ago.  But then the two of them wouldn&#39;t be able to parade as spokeswomen for libertarianism. Friggin impostors!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: GilM</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/10/25/liberty-in-context/comment-page-2/#comment-594240</link>
		<dc:creator>GilM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 04:31:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3853#comment-594240</guid>
		<description>No.  Kerry and Todd Seavey should do a Bloggingheads.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No.  Kerry and Todd Seavey should do a Bloggingheads.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Don&#8217;t Ask The Libertarians To Save The Whales &#171; Around The Sphere</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/10/25/liberty-in-context/comment-page-2/#comment-594239</link>
		<dc:creator>Don&#8217;t Ask The Libertarians To Save The Whales &#171; Around The Sphere</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 18:01:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3853#comment-594239</guid>
		<description>[...] Will Wilkinson: As I see it, Kerry’s claim is that many libertarians fail to adequately acknowledge the fact (and it is a fact) that people are embedded in and shaped by culture, and that, as a consequence, many libertarians fail to grasp the extent to which cultural norms and social structure can limit individual liberty or work to deny some individuals the opportunity to develop the capacities needed to meaningfully exercise their liberty rights. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Will Wilkinson: As I see it, Kerry’s claim is that many libertarians fail to adequately acknowledge the fact (and it is a fact) that people are embedded in and shaped by culture, and that, as a consequence, many libertarians fail to grasp the extent to which cultural norms and social structure can limit individual liberty or work to deny some individuals the opportunity to develop the capacities needed to meaningfully exercise their liberty rights. [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mina</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/10/25/liberty-in-context/comment-page-2/#comment-594238</link>
		<dc:creator>Mina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 15:19:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3853#comment-594238</guid>
		<description>You should do a blogging heads with Kerry on the subject.  I absorb information better through discursive rambling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You should do a blogging heads with Kerry on the subject.  I absorb information better through discursive rambling.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Gorgias</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/10/25/liberty-in-context/comment-page-2/#comment-594236</link>
		<dc:creator>Gorgias</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 01:59:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3853#comment-594236</guid>
		<description>I think the idea that libertarians should work to erode or challenge cultural conformism is exactly what&#039;s at stake here.  See all the people above protesting that libertarianism is fundamentally a political ideology, and any ideas advanced by a libertarian are useless if they do not have policy implications, or the belief that libertarianism is about allowing individuals to create pockets of society with different mores, some of which will promote cultural conformism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the idea that libertarians should work to erode or challenge cultural conformism is exactly what&#39;s at stake here.  See all the people above protesting that libertarianism is fundamentally a political ideology, and any ideas advanced by a libertarian are useless if they do not have policy implications, or the belief that libertarianism is about allowing individuals to create pockets of society with different mores, some of which will promote cultural conformism.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jay Daniel</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/10/25/liberty-in-context/comment-page-2/#comment-594235</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 22:27:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3853#comment-594235</guid>
		<description>Simonkinahan - thank you for responding with such courtesy.  I agree that you have identified the hard question, as did Kerry.  Libertarianism more generally has a problem with the raising of children.   Kerry tries to answer it one way, but her way essentially says, &quot;society should not permit any coercive social norms except for the coercive social norm that society should not permit any coercive social norms.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Even though I think Kerry&#039;s answer is internally contradictory, from a practical standpoint, I believe it is a better reason for coercion than finding a practice &quot;repulsive.&quot;  I do get concerned that immigration and changes to our population could lead to an increase in appetite for state coercion of norms.  This is happening elsewhere; sometimes it is overblown, and sometimes it isn&#039;t.  I think Kerry&#039;s argument, teased out, might even support a prohibition against people from more traditional cultures or practicing particularly illiberal forms of religion from voting (I wonder what Will or Kerry would think of that application of her reasoning?)&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;My answer to your example is actually pretty much the same as Kerry&#039;s on the theoretical, but I see it cutting in the other direction when it comes to application.  &lt;i&gt;BECAUSE&lt;/i&gt; everyone&#039;s values are contingent upon the circumstances, community, and culture in which they grew up,  there ought to be a firm, ex ante rule that says the state has no role in shaping the child-rearing context. Even though I&#039;m instinctively uncomfortable with this rule&#039;s application in certain contexts because I agree with you that the polygamous cult&#039;s child-rearing is fairly repulsive, I don&#039;t think the situation you describe is significantly different from most traditional cultural practices, and would closely mirrors more traditional Muslim practices.   It just includes an &quot;ick&quot; factor, along with perhaps additional cultural distance so that I feel very little sympathy.  When I imagine traditional muslims who have recently immigrated living next door and raising their children in a traditional manner, I find that forceful intervention sounds much less appealing.  Do you agree? &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Also, a child who grows up in a family that is secular and liberal will have attitudes that many, if not most people in the United States find &quot;fairly repulsive.&quot;  While this may be changing, I still suspect that a society in which everyone agrees that the most powerful political block gets to impose its social norms on everyone else, the secular liberal family loses out.  Its for this reason that I oppose state coercion, and I&#039;m not going to support it if and when people who are more like me attain power.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Simonkinahan &#8211; thank you for responding with such courtesy.  I agree that you have identified the hard question, as did Kerry.  Libertarianism more generally has a problem with the raising of children.   Kerry tries to answer it one way, but her way essentially says, &#8220;society should not permit any coercive social norms except for the coercive social norm that society should not permit any coercive social norms.&#8221;</p>
<p>Even though I think Kerry&#39;s answer is internally contradictory, from a practical standpoint, I believe it is a better reason for coercion than finding a practice &#8220;repulsive.&#8221;  I do get concerned that immigration and changes to our population could lead to an increase in appetite for state coercion of norms.  This is happening elsewhere; sometimes it is overblown, and sometimes it isn&#39;t.  I think Kerry&#39;s argument, teased out, might even support a prohibition against people from more traditional cultures or practicing particularly illiberal forms of religion from voting (I wonder what Will or Kerry would think of that application of her reasoning?)</p>
<p>My answer to your example is actually pretty much the same as Kerry&#39;s on the theoretical, but I see it cutting in the other direction when it comes to application.  <i>BECAUSE</i> everyone&#39;s values are contingent upon the circumstances, community, and culture in which they grew up,  there ought to be a firm, ex ante rule that says the state has no role in shaping the child-rearing context. Even though I&#39;m instinctively uncomfortable with this rule&#39;s application in certain contexts because I agree with you that the polygamous cult&#39;s child-rearing is fairly repulsive, I don&#39;t think the situation you describe is significantly different from most traditional cultural practices, and would closely mirrors more traditional Muslim practices.   It just includes an &#8220;ick&#8221; factor, along with perhaps additional cultural distance so that I feel very little sympathy.  When I imagine traditional muslims who have recently immigrated living next door and raising their children in a traditional manner, I find that forceful intervention sounds much less appealing.  Do you agree? </p>
<p>Also, a child who grows up in a family that is secular and liberal will have attitudes that many, if not most people in the United States find &#8220;fairly repulsive.&#8221;  While this may be changing, I still suspect that a society in which everyone agrees that the most powerful political block gets to impose its social norms on everyone else, the secular liberal family loses out.  Its for this reason that I oppose state coercion, and I&#39;m not going to support it if and when people who are more like me attain power.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Gorgias</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/10/25/liberty-in-context/comment-page-2/#comment-594232</link>
		<dc:creator>Gorgias</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 22:06:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3853#comment-594232</guid>
		<description>Why isn&#039;t, &quot;libertarians ought to promote libertarian social mores outside government intervention,&quot; an important distinction from the rest of the libertarian movement?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why isn&#39;t, &#8220;libertarians ought to promote libertarian social mores outside government intervention,&#8221; an important distinction from the rest of the libertarian movement?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: simonkinahan</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/10/25/liberty-in-context/comment-page-2/#comment-594233</link>
		<dc:creator>simonkinahan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 21:41:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3853#comment-594233</guid>
		<description>Jay, Sorry I misrepresented you. I still think there&#039;s a genuine disagreement here, although I&#039;m still trying to clarify for myself just where it lies. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I agree that we should allow groups from the seasteaders to the Amish through the ACLU to form an associate as they see fit. Communities naturally have norms and generally will disassociate from members who don&#039;t live by them and that&#039;s unavoidable, but there are elements here that are tricky for me. I think there&#039;s a basic kernel of norms that&#039;s essential to a liberal society, and for me they go a bit further than non-coercion. When a sub-group abandons those norms, I think its appropriate for the wider society to intervene. I&#039;m not sure such intervention can always be non-coercive, although I&#039;d certainly prefer it to be. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Take the example of a polygamist cult that believes that women should not be educated, should be married to a man of their father&#039;s choosing at the earliest age, should be obedient to their husbands, and should be exposed to no outside influences. Lets suppose that they&#039;re not breaking any laws (its unlikely in practice, but this is for the sake of argument). Now most of us would find this fairly repulsive. Personally I&#039;d also favour any possible private non-coercive action to change the situation. If that didn&#039;t work would I favor forceful intervention? I personally find this a very hard question.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jay, Sorry I misrepresented you. I still think there&#39;s a genuine disagreement here, although I&#39;m still trying to clarify for myself just where it lies. </p>
<p>I agree that we should allow groups from the seasteaders to the Amish through the ACLU to form an associate as they see fit. Communities naturally have norms and generally will disassociate from members who don&#39;t live by them and that&#39;s unavoidable, but there are elements here that are tricky for me. I think there&#39;s a basic kernel of norms that&#39;s essential to a liberal society, and for me they go a bit further than non-coercion. When a sub-group abandons those norms, I think its appropriate for the wider society to intervene. I&#39;m not sure such intervention can always be non-coercive, although I&#39;d certainly prefer it to be. </p>
<p>Take the example of a polygamist cult that believes that women should not be educated, should be married to a man of their father&#39;s choosing at the earliest age, should be obedient to their husbands, and should be exposed to no outside influences. Lets suppose that they&#39;re not breaking any laws (its unlikely in practice, but this is for the sake of argument). Now most of us would find this fairly repulsive. Personally I&#39;d also favour any possible private non-coercive action to change the situation. If that didn&#39;t work would I favor forceful intervention? I personally find this a very hard question.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Name</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/10/25/liberty-in-context/comment-page-2/#comment-594231</link>
		<dc:creator>Name</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 21:27:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3853#comment-594231</guid>
		<description>Totally.  All her ideas are simply wasted typing unless they&#039;re moored to some sort of policy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Totally.  All her ideas are simply wasted typing unless they&#39;re moored to some sort of policy.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
