Comments on: History Repeats Itself

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By: Tracy W

Tracy W — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 06:57:40 +0000

But most European countries are ones whose identity arises from the arbitrariness of who married who (eg the ascension of the Scottish King James VI to be King of England as well was the result of his grandmother being English royalty) or who managed to win a war at the right time. And why is Canada a different country to the USA? Why is Texas part of the USA and not Mexico?

The magic ju-ju man in the sky has a surprising tendency to change his beliefs when the people on the ground want him to change, so that doesn't strike me as reason to believe in no growth. Morocco is changing and developing.

I will also note that the bearded blokes do not derive their sole claim to authority from the Koran, not as long as the police and the army follow their instructions. Guns are a pretty strong claim on authority, even without any religious backing at all.

And what right do you have to assert what words the mullahs may use, with or without authority? If I was a mullah I'd cock a snock at you and go on using whatever words I thought were right.

By: R. Kevin Hill

R. Kevin Hill — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:15:53 +0000

Mousavi's importance is symbolic, which in politics can be as real as gold: as long as he remains the probably winner of a lawful election and the government refuses to inaugurate him, he and his followers force the assessment of the government as completely illegitimate even by its own standards. And that, and only that, make the prospect of revolution something other than completely impossible. Assessment of what he would do as president is utterly beside the point, because he will never be president, and his greatest impact has so far and will continue to stem from that fact.

By: mb

mb — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 00:11:16 +0000

She may be right about the rest, but whatever you think of Ahmadinejad, is it at all accurate to call him a “warmonger”? Which wars has he started?

By: Duncan

Duncan — Sat, 27 Jun 2009 12:33:25 +0000

I appreciated rimfax's pedantic correction, that Iran hasn't had a free election in 56 years, and I don't think it's entirely pedantic. After all, few in the US cared about the lack of freedom in Iran while the Shah was in power, and he was one ruthless, murderous SOB. The US has happily supported all kinds of nasty dictators, who constituted most of the “free world” Ghobady invokes, supporting their armies and secret police and training their torturers … oops, enhanced interrogators. This is why the American spluttering about people like Hugo Chavez, or even Ahmadinejad, is so entertaintaining: even if they were dictators, that wouldn't bother our government or most citizens, so something else has to be the problem.

As for that bit about the “farcical imitation of the free nomination/ election process that we have pictured in the free world”, maybe “pictured” is the key word there. We also have a filtering system in the US, in which the corporate media, the corporate corporations, pro-corporate party elites, and religious leaders vet Presidential candidates and ensure that no “secular, pluralistic, freedom-loving democratic person who loves his or her country can become a candidate to run for president (or any other office) in” the US. I hope Ghobady knows more about Iran than she does about the “free world.”

By: JR

JR — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 12:07:22 +0000

Two hundred years ago in this country human beings were held in bondage, women weren't allowed to vote, and the government regularly undertook questionable military action for the sole purpose of territorial expansion. None of that changed as the result of a single election. It changed because of a political process that allowed for incremental improvements. why should Iran be any different?

By: Craig McGillivary

Craig McGillivary — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 09:57:47 +0000

You can go on believing that Pipes talked about Obama's supposed muslim background purely because it had foreign policy implications. In the real world he was trying to hurt Obama politically by questioning his Christianity. Now actually I find his claim that Iraq as an imminent threat more troubling because the truth about Obama's religion matters less than stupidly going to war in Iraq.

By: History Repeats Itself

History Repeats Itself — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 02:12:17 +0000

[...] freedom-loving democratic person who loves his or her country can become a candidate to ru click for more var gaJsHost = ((“https:” == document.location.protocol) ? “https://ssl.” : [...]

By: History Repeats Itself

History Repeats Itself — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 02:12:10 +0000

By: Minos

Minos — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 23:16:46 +0000

The astute reader will notice that I doinked up first and second in that concluding paragraph. As Gene Wilder's Willy Wonka would say, “Strike that; reverse it.”

By: Minos

Minos — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 23:13:22 +0000

The point here in all of this (speaking not specifically of green symbolism, but broadly of seeing that the government come to a modus vivendi with the protesters rather than beating the $#!^ out of them or shooting them) is not remotely that Mousavi is a great guy. I suspect the new boss will be the same as the old boss, with perhaps, a 30% reduction in lunatic, spittle intensive speeches targeted at America, Britain, Jews, and small kittens.

The point is to alter the way in which the regime interacts with its citizens. As John Mueller points out in Capitalism, Democracy, and Ralph's Pretty Good Grocery, the key feature of a democracy is not elections, universal suffrage, or attractive July 4th bunting, but rather that the government be responsive to the deeply held opinions and desires of the people.

An Iran in which 99% of the time, the people grumble about the clerics, but let them do what they want, but 1% of the time, get to exercise some sort of public veto is a very different Iran than an Iran in which 99% of the time, the people grumble about the clerics, but let them do what they want, but 1% of the time, they say something and get shot.

The second kind of Iran is an Iran that is susceptible to the eroding forces of public opinion, globalization, international flow of ideas, attitudes, and mores, and, yes, soul-less capitalist consumerism. The second kind of Iran's veil gets a little more transparent every year; the first kind...looks the same. Year, after year, after year.

By: What Green Means « Modeled Behavior

What Green Means « Modeled Behavior — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 17:57:16 +0000

[...] ~ June 24th, 2009 In a series of posts Will Wilkinson worries that we’re excited about the Iranian uprising for all the wrong [...]

By: uknowbetter

uknowbetter — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 16:16:23 +0000

Again, it's more than support for Mousavi at this point. The green is being worn/shown as an expression of disgust against the manipulation of the sham election and solidarity with the Iranian people who want more freedom and less repression.

If you really think everyone in the streets in Iran is a Mousavi supporter and if you think people are turning their avatars green to support Mousavi, then you really aren't paying attention.

By: John Thacker

John Thacker — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 14:48:49 +0000

Nothing wrong with being a muslim, but I do think that Pipes was trying to harm Obama politically by spreading doubts about his religion.

Pipes' column said that Muslim extremists would consider Obama an apostate because his father was a Muslim, even if lapsed. I find that factual argument plausible, even if I don't care particularly if the idiots have another reason to hate America.

Of course, Obama himself referenced this background in his speech in Cairo, and indeed, some people thought it should help Obama politically that he has some sort of connection to the Muslim world through his background and raising. I understand that people are very concerned with the idea of the intent and motive underlying factual arguments. At some point, though, it can seem kind of absurd how the same factual statement can be condemned or praised depending on, for example, whether it's designed to help or harm someone politically.

For example, Lila Ghobady's arguments about the facts on the ground are indeed identical to those made by neocons. I'm somewhat surprised that Will would resist turning his avatar green on Twitter for fear it might aid neocons, and yet give air to Ghobady's arguments-- which, being the same as the ones the neocons made when arguing with liberal internationalists, might be likely to persuade people to the neocon position.

Ghobady's arguments are exactly the sort that might persuade someone who supported engagement and waiting for the elections not for absolute reasons of non-intervention, but for tactical reasons of thinking that the elections were legitimate and a possible means of change, to agree with the neocons.