Liberaltarian Reactions

by Will Wilkinson on February 13, 2009

There are a ton of smart responses to my exchange with Jonah on liberaltarianism. (Brink, maybe we need to write that book.) Here’s Andrew Sullivan. Here’s Matt Welch. Here’s Reihan Salam. Here’s Ross Douthat. And here’s Virginia Postrel, not responding to my post, but drawing on her experiences at a couple recent Brink-devised libertarian/liberal events to draw out what she thinks is the real impediment to a reunion of contemporary classical liberals and our much more numerous liberal cousins. 

When you get political theorists together, they assume the big divide is over the relative weights given to equality and liberty–the old Rawls vs. Nosick split. But given the right flavor of liberals and libertarians, that’s bridgeable. The real division, I believe, is over regulation. Contemporary liberals will say, as someone did at dinner in DC, that they are against stupid regulations like the controls on trucking abolished in the late 1970s. And I’m glad for that.

But finding liberals who oppose any new regulation is almost impossible–no matter what the perverse consequences. My particular bugaboo is housing.

But the CPSIA is another good example. John Holbo at Crooked Timber is wondering why the law’s defenders–his fellow liberals, in other words–aren’t addressing the criticisms head-on: “Maybe thrift store shopping for children should become a thing of the past, because it’s too hazardous to life and limb. But, to repeat, I haven’t actually seen anyone 1) argue that the law shouldn’t, as written, have these really very sweeping effects; 2) argue that, even if it does, on balance it’s still a good law.” The comments do not encourage optimism about a liberal-libertarian/dynamist coalition.

Unfortunately, once you are ideologically committed to the idea of regulation, you can’t say that a given regulation is bad–or, worse, that maybe doing nothing new would have been the best course.

Virginia’s right. Regulation has been a particular sticking point. But, the thing is, I don’t think there’s anything particularly intractable about this — as long as the problem is a genuine disagreement about the net benefit of a particular regulation. That can be hashed out. The problem is intractable when it reflects a deep enculturated distrust between classical liberals and contemporary liberals. The latter suspect that even moderate libertarian types reject the legitimacy of regulation altogether, and so are just being coy when pointing out the costs of regulation. Libertarians aren’t really interested in regulatory efficiency. They just hate regulation, period. They’re clever at the rhetoric of reaction, and all this talk of moral hazard or perverse unintended consequences is a front for what they really want: nothing. But, the thing is, Virginia and Ed Glaeser are simply right about housing regulation. The fact that most liberals won’t listen, due to distrust, is a problem not only for liberal/libertarian amity, but for the poor people hurt by bad regulation. From the classical liberal side, we become distrustful when liberals say they are perfectly willing actually to perform the cost-benefit analysis, but then somehow find that there is always a net benefit. That’s fishy! And so we come to suspect that this seemingly reasonable willingness to honestly and rigorously evaluate the effectiveness of regulation is a front for what they really want: everything.

But it remains that there are classical and contemporary liberals who really do share deep common values and common liberal aims. I don’t think you argue your way out of an impasse of contingent historical suspicion. I think you socialize your way out of it.

  • Good read , i like the way you put your point forward .
    I agree with all you said up there !
  • Conservatives may be against big government in theory, but rarely are in practice; they tend to be more interested in regulating expression because of concerns about vulgarity, for instance.
  • dustinjruybal
    The latter suspect that even moderate libertarian types reject the legitimacy of regulation altogether, and so are just being coy when pointing out the costs of regulation. Libertarians aren’t really interested in regulatory efficiency. They just hate regulation, period.The other thing is (and this is no ones fault) thrift savings plan when public arguments are made against regulation liberals aren't usually the targets- low information middle class moderates are which leads to regulation opponents making their arguments not about helping the poor but about the government trying to take over Regular Joe's life. So not only does your funding not come from people we trust but often the arguments your making look to us like manipulating people with fear
  • Dan H
    A more fundamental rift between liberals and libertarians is that liberals believe that society and economic activity needs to be planned by a central authority. This is why they are almost always in favor of new regulations - a regulation is a plan, an attempt to control what they see as out-of-control forces. No matter how good an economy is, it can always be made better by the smart people at the top, so long as they are given the power to change things.

    Libertarians, on the other hand, are okay with the notion that a modern society is an exercise in spontaneous order, and that optimal solutions are often reached if you simply let society or the economy work out the problem and adapt. Most libertarians accept that society has to work within a framework of social order and civil society, and that government has a place in maintaining the conditions which allows markets to work and people to be free to choose without coercion. This separates them from anarchists.

    Conservatives get along with libertarians because they share the same fundamental beliefs when it comes to the economy, only they tend to personify it by saying that the family and local community are the drivers of social order, and they seek to protect them. Both Conservatives and libertarians have an inherent distrust of central planning, and this overrides their differences on social policy enough to allow them to work together.

    Where conservatives and libertarians differ is that conservatives think the central government should be the protector of established social norms and morality, and libertarians do not. But compared to their agreement that central planning of the economy is bad, this is a much smaller area of disagreement.

    I do not see how libertarians and liberals can work together so long as liberals seek to continually increase the state's power to plan society and control the market. This is a very deep, very fundamental difference in philosophy.
  • toad
    The problem is intractable when it reflects a deep enculturated distrust between classical liberals and contemporary liberals. The latter suspect that even moderate libertarian types reject the legitimacy of regulation altogether, and so are just being coy when pointing out the costs of regulation. Libertarians aren’t really interested in regulatory efficiency. They just hate regulation, period.

    Well, yes.

    I've read too many libertarian screeds about abolishing the Federal Reserve, "taxation is theft," getting rid of OSHA, the evils of environmental rules, and even zoning, repealing civil rights laws, etc. to believe otherwise.

    The fact is libertarians generally come across as fanatic ideologues - the kind of people you edge away from at a party so as not to hear about how fractional reserve banking is the source of all our troubles, and how wonderful things are in Somalia.
  • Socializing may help understanding so as too prevent demonizing others over disagreements on principles, but then that would apply to socializing with individuals on the left or right -- however, in the interest of integrity, the differences in principles trump any harmony generated by socializing. Any regulations which protect the rights of life, liberty, property and the pursuit of happiness, I'm in agreement with -- any regulation which violates these rights, I disagree with on principle - even if in the company of the individual with whom I disagree I enjoy a good glass of wine and a discussion whether John Ashbery is a great poet or word-clown perpetrating a literary hoax.
  • In the interest of such socializing, can you list a handful of regulations on which you think the the regulation is good and the liberals got it right? No nickel-dime or "deregulating" regulations please.
  • Jack
    Seconding this.
  • Craig
    "I don’t think you argue your way out of an impasse of contingent historical suspicion. I think you socialize your way out of it."

    WTF? Do you want to try that one again, this time in English.
  • One builds trust with others by spending time with them--by getting to know them--rather than by debating with them like suspicious outsiders. Better?
  • Craig
    Yup.
    But I still think modern liberals are too paternalistic, too willing to regulate the individual for his or her own good (even when equality is not at issue) to make reliable allies.
    Or, to put it a different way, anyone who wants to tell me how much transfat I can ingest, or where I can smoke, is not a friend of liberty.
    Thanks for a most interesting debate, though.
  • Craig
    Surely the biggest difference is that liberals are now explicitly paternalistic.
    Ask a roomful of liberals and conservatives how they feel about smoking bans, transfats, and all of the other nanny state nonsense - I am sure that you'd get far more conservatives defending individual autonomy.
  • webgrrl
    "smoking bans, transfats"

    Um, Craig, reality check: here in NYC all that "nanny state nonsense" was pushed by um, the then-Republican, Bloomberg.

    I find most liberals are too busy telling me that FGM can't be judged because it's an issue of multiculturalism and oh no they wouldn't ever judge; it's conservatives who are making me infantile, telling me how I have to live my life and how I can't get birth control inexpensively over-the-counter because they have religious beliefs.
  • Jack
    Speaking as one of the 19% of liberal readers...

    The reason for our basic distrust of deregulation/ opposition to new regulation is that it is so often, particularly on the federal level, driven by the industries that are or would be regulated. Now obviously said industries have good reason to state their case but when we see that the effort to prevent regulation of industry x is funded entirely by industry x we see corporations acting based of profit motive and not the interests of the poor/consumers etc. Even if the arguments against regulation are good we have trouble believing the people making them have the same goals we do because they're paid by people who don't (which isn't to say corporations are evil, just not primarily concerned with the poor).

    The other thing is (and this is no ones fault) when public arguments are made against regulation liberals aren't usually the targets- low information middle class moderates are which leads to regulation opponents making their arguments not about helping the poor but about the government trying to take over Regular Joe's life. So not only does your funding not come from people we trust but often the arguments your making look to us like manipulating people with fear... which is probably still your best bet for preventing regulation in the short term. But in the long term it doesn't get liberals on your side.
  • JP
    If regulation is indeed the sticking point, we might be able to bridge the divide by requiring Public Choice Theory to be taught in Junior High civics courses.
  • MichaelG
    My take on this is that libertarians are "socially liberal, economically conservative." We jumped in bed with the Republicans because they said they were economically conservative. Now that it's obvious they are not, we jump to the Democrats. And if you want the socially liberal part of our philosophy, it might work. But forget about economics. The Democratic party ideals are all wrapped up with "fairness" and "equality" -- equal outcomes, not equal opportunity. There's nothing Libertarian about that.
  • BC
    You should send this post to Jon Stewart of the Daily Show. He is constantly misrepresenting the libertarian position as "no regulation at all," and is thus misleading an important political demographic.
  • Send this post? Will should be a guest on the show...
  • Will should be a guest on the show...


    I second that.
  • Glaeser's position on zoning regulations and affordable housing is widely accepted by liberals. It is by no means the "libertarian perspective" on affordable housing. The uber-liberal NLIHC has organized several nation-wide efforts to roll back restrictive zoning regulations.

    In fact, libertarians like Randall O'Toole and Wendell Cox take the empirical work done by Glaeser (and Malpezzi, Quigley et al) and stretch it to cartoonish lengths, usually ending with a call for the abolition of all zoning regulations. Their ignorance of both zoning regulations and housing policy would be comical if they weren't considered "libertarian scholars." If anything, THAT'S the "libertarian perspective" on zoning regulations and affordable housing.
  • John Thrasher
    The problem with the left is the same problem with Rawls: a focus on ideal theory that ignores the problems that actually arise in political practice. It is, I think, this intuition or assumption of full compliance that leads liberals on the left to favor regulation as the chief policy option. They disregard, as Rawls did, what public choice and other non-ideal examinations of actual political reality teach us about what happens when we try to implement ideal theory in a non-ideal world. Maybe classical liberals think of politics as too non-ideal, but the left liberal seems all too willing to focus on hypothetical benefits of regulation while disregarding the probable costs.
  • toad
    Funny, I would say much te same about libertarians. Thaey are so enamored of their theories that they ignore how the world really works.

    The libertarian seems all too willing to focus on hypothetical benefits of unfettered market interactions while disregarding the cost.

    I'm not trying to say who's wrong or right here, just that sometimes a look in the mirror is worthwhile.
  • I agree to some extent, but I worry sometimes that we could be guilty of the same criticism. It doesn't seem *that* different to the argument that some on the left make that it is libertarian free market policies that are responsible for the crash. You and I know that if there was no Fed and a free market in banking things would be different, but arguably the watered down version, the version, that is, that it is realistic to assume will come out of the political process, given that there are a lot of people who are opposed to markets, was predictably going to be disastrous and terrible. Yeah, if everyone agreed with us, things would probably have not gotten so bad. But they don't, so they did.

    I don't think this is any reason to abandon any deeply held belief, just that it shows that non-ideal theory is really hard.
  • Unit
    The argument is not that we don't want any regulation. The argument is that centrally-planned regulation crowds out spontaneously emergent organically grown regulation that evolves over time and is tend to and respected. As an example take Prop 8 in Ca, where free individual decided to sign private contracts and where able to find judges to recognize those contracts. The process had evolved step-by-step and the in one swoop the voters decided that all those marriages had to be banned. I don't see why liberals could agree with this point of view.
  • I don’t think you argue your way out of an impasse of contingent historical suspicion. I think you socialize your way out of it.


    This is why I'm optimistic about liberaltarianism. I get the impression that among the blogging elite (basically the people that are on or have ever been on Bloggingheads), friendships and honest conversations between liberals and libertarians are much more numerous than between libertarians and conservatives, at least for people under, say 40. Of course, that's just my outsider impression, and maybe it's skewed by my personal perspective.
  • John Thacker
    friendships and honest conversations between liberals and libertarians are much more numerous than between libertarians and conservatives, at least for people under, say 40. Of course, that's just my outsider impression, and maybe it's skewed by my personal perspective.


    Well, partially it's that young, educated people generally on the Right are more likely to be libertarians, or at least libertarianish conservatives, than conservatives. But at the same time, the similar sorts of people (who get along socially) are more likely to be libertarianish liberals as well. The "blogging elite" liberals don't tend to be big fans of "Buy American," and tend to be at least open to ideas like Ed Glaeser's. But they'll call themselves liberals or progressive just like some of the really anti-libertarian left.

    It's certainly helpful to try to open up any sort of eyes to libertarian arguments. Just recognize that, unfortunately, political considerations will always be paramount. President Obama so far has been open and nice and everything, but his Administration has been pretty disappointing for libertarians, including on issues like rendition and state secret claims that civil libertarian liberals and libertarians were hoping for action on. (To me, closing Guantanamo but sending prisoners either overseas OR to Fort Leavenworth or ADX Florence doesn't reduce torture at all. Supermax prisons are worse than waterboarding.)
  • Just recognize that, unfortunately, political considerations will always be paramount.


    How much longer do we have to wait for the internet to make political parties obsolete?!?
  • Bill R
    "I think you socialize your way out of it."

    I think that's perhaps what the project will amount to ...he he. http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=2603

    The difference between libertarians and conservatives isn't typically on economics whereas the (broad) Left's raison d'etre is an obsession with inequality and remaking society to their liking. Goldberg points to one recent example with the eharmony lawsuit and his Liberal Fascism is chock full of them.

    I think this approach (http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/v30n5/cp...) is more worthy of attention in both the short term and long term. I am disappointed Cato hasn't looked into it a little more.
  • Joe Strummer
    Virginia’s right. Regulation has been a particular sticking point. But, the thing is, I don’t think there’s anything particularly intractable about this — as long as the problem is a genuine disagreement about the net benefit of a particular regulation. That can be hashed out.

    First, this is right, but kind of beside the point since we both know (I'm looking at you, Will) that regulations have some of the strongest interest groups behind them. So it's an area where there may not be a huge ideological divide between liberals and libertarians, but where there are enormous resources that preclude the elimination of many regulations.

    Second, this is right, but, again, beside the point because there are A LOT of regulations. So when you say "this can be hashed out," what you're really saying is that this can be hashed out on thousands and thousands of regulations. Now, maybe once you "hash it out" - whatever that means - on some, you get some traction on others. But still...

    But I guess my major problem is that you seem to think there's a great deal of ideological juice here, where I just think there's straight-up pecuniary interests at stake. And those can't be reasoned with by reference to Rawls, Nozick, or any other political philosopher, save Jim Buchanan, maybe.
  • The fact of the matter is that any reasonable individual who favors minimal government can hash out differences with either steadfast conservatives or liberals on specific issues.

    Conservatives may be against big government in theory, but rarely are in practice; they tend to be more interested in regulating expression because of concerns about vulgarity, for instance.

    Liberals are for big government in theory but also these days seem to be ardent critics of corruption and government spending going into the hands of the rich.

    In both cases you can find issues to meet in the middle on. With liberals I often debate subsidies by pointing out that they inevitably end up going into the hands of big businesses rather than helping out the poor. For conservatives I often point out that setting up the regulatory apparatus to keep vulgarity out of media often ends up being used by liberals, once in office, to also censor anything considered politically incorrect or offensive.

    The bottom line is that neither the typical conservative nor the typical liberal is as devoted to limited government or limiting corruption as they are to their social policies. But for those of us who do in fact favor property rights and deregulation, you can always find common ground with either side, if you are willing to look for it (and if the actual specific person you are talking to is reasonable enough).
  • Maybe it will help to have Cass Sunstein heading the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs. I don't care for nudging, but he seems willing to actually consider costs and benefits.
  • From the classical liberal side, we become distrustful when liberals say they are perfectly willing actually to perform the cost-benefit analysis, but then somehow find that there is always a net benefit. That’s fishy!

    Is that because of poor analysis, or because it's always easy to imagine an exception case where the proposed regulation does provide an instance of a benefit? thus, rent control is good, because without it we'd be dumping nice old ladies and their kitties onto the street. The argument always turns into saving the imaginary kitties, doesn't it?
  • musa
    Especially if they're on a diet of peanut butter.
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