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	<title>Comments on: Against Fake Libertarian Clarity</title>
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	<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/11/10/against-fake-libertarian-clarity/</link>
	<description>The Sweet Release of Reason</description>
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		<title>By: Club Troppo &#187; Freedom&#8217;s just another word for &#8230; ?</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/11/10/against-fake-libertarian-clarity/comment-page-2/#comment-594860</link>
		<dc:creator>Club Troppo &#187; Freedom&#8217;s just another word for &#8230; ?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Dec 2009 23:14:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2162#comment-594860</guid>
		<description>[...] As Will Wilkinson points out, some libertarians insist on defining liberty as the absence of coercion. Then, when they define coercion, they tie themselves up in knots to exclude forms of coercion they approve of. According to these libertarians, threatening to shoot trespassers isn&#8217;t coercive but a government ban on automatic weapons is. Will writes that &quot;it is abuse of language to deny that many emotional or social threats are coercive&quot;. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] As Will Wilkinson points out, some libertarians insist on defining liberty as the absence of coercion. Then, when they define coercion, they tie themselves up in knots to exclude forms of coercion they approve of. According to these libertarians, threatening to shoot trespassers isn&#8217;t coercive but a government ban on automatic weapons is. Will writes that &quot;it is abuse of language to deny that many emotional or social threats are coercive&quot;. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: starchild</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/11/10/against-fake-libertarian-clarity/comment-page-2/#comment-594258</link>
		<dc:creator>starchild</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 00:03:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2162#comment-594258</guid>
		<description>The author makes the mistake of talking about libertarians as being opposed to coercion. This is only partly true. In being for freedom, libertarians recognize the right to use coercive means to protect life, liberty, and justly acquired property. What we oppose is aggression, i.e. the *initiation* of force.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;See &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.isil.org/resources/introduction.swf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.isil.org/resources/introduction.swf&lt;/a&gt; for a short video that does a fair job summarizing the philosophy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The author makes the mistake of talking about libertarians as being opposed to coercion. This is only partly true. In being for freedom, libertarians recognize the right to use coercive means to protect life, liberty, and justly acquired property. What we oppose is aggression, i.e. the *initiation* of force.</p>
<p>See <a href="http://www.isil.org/resources/introduction.swf" rel="nofollow">http://www.isil.org/resources/introduction.swf</a> for a short video that does a fair job summarizing the philosophy.</p>
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		<title>By: Feuding libertarians &#171; Muse Free</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/11/10/against-fake-libertarian-clarity/comment-page-2/#comment-590252</link>
		<dc:creator>Feuding libertarians &#171; Muse Free</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 17:36:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2162#comment-590252</guid>
		<description>[...] of libertarianism such as this post from only a few weeks back. He has also written sentences like this: [If libertarianism is the view] that coercive limits to liberty are justified only in defense of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of libertarianism such as this post from only a few weeks back. He has also written sentences like this: [If libertarianism is the view] that coercive limits to liberty are justified only in defense of [...]</p>
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		<title>By: understanding what JR has become (since college) - step 1 &#171; Harder Science</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/11/10/against-fake-libertarian-clarity/comment-page-2/#comment-588663</link>
		<dc:creator>understanding what JR has become (since college) - step 1 &#171; Harder Science</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2009 22:54:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2162#comment-588663</guid>
		<description>[...] 9, 2009 &#183; No Comments  read about &#8220;fake libertarian clarity&#8221; and then about stereotype [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 9, 2009 &middot; No Comments  read about &#8220;fake libertarian clarity&#8221; and then about stereotype [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Cindy P Dennis</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/11/10/against-fake-libertarian-clarity/comment-page-2/#comment-586322</link>
		<dc:creator>Cindy P Dennis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Feb 2009 05:18:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2162#comment-586322</guid>
		<description>Excellent, entertaining, useful reading, Thanks !!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent, entertaining, useful reading, Thanks !!</p>
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		<title>By: The Limits Of Libertarianism &#171; 36 Chambers - The Legendary Journeys: Execution to the max!</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/11/10/against-fake-libertarian-clarity/comment-page-2/#comment-585059</link>
		<dc:creator>The Limits Of Libertarianism &#171; 36 Chambers - The Legendary Journeys: Execution to the max!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 17:14:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2162#comment-585059</guid>
		<description>[...] that I wanted to respond to, but ended up too busy to give it a good response.  She links to a Wil Wilkinson post in which he notes that coercion is not limited to arbitrary government action and concludes by [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] that I wanted to respond to, but ended up too busy to give it a good response.  She links to a Wil Wilkinson post in which he notes that coercion is not limited to arbitrary government action and concludes by [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ladyblog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; I am Sometimes a Libertarian and Sometimes a Feminist, but Never Both at the Same Time</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/11/10/against-fake-libertarian-clarity/comment-page-2/#comment-584837</link>
		<dc:creator>Ladyblog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; I am Sometimes a Libertarian and Sometimes a Feminist, but Never Both at the Same Time</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 02:13:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2162#comment-584837</guid>
		<description>[...] blog war between Kerry Howley and Will Wilkinson on one side and Todd Seavey on the other has attracted the attention of other bloggers, including [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] blog war between Kerry Howley and Will Wilkinson on one side and Todd Seavey on the other has attracted the attention of other bloggers, including [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dave2</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/11/10/against-fake-libertarian-clarity/comment-page-2/#comment-584835</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 19:05:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2162#comment-584835</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m surprised that the name &quot;Mill&quot; has only come up once here. It should be unsurprising that political libertarians, who&#039;d like to forcefully abolish systems of political control, are frequently (what could be called) social libertarians, who&#039;d like to apply strong counterpressure to systems of social control.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;To be sure, in political discussions, political libertarians often set aside social matters. But that&#039;s because they think political means are inappropriate for the achievement of social goals. Maybe right-wing libertarians in 20th century America have tended to see social matters as unimportant, but the main historical streams of libertarianism are not like that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#39;m surprised that the name &#8220;Mill&#8221; has only come up once here. It should be unsurprising that political libertarians, who&#39;d like to forcefully abolish systems of political control, are frequently (what could be called) social libertarians, who&#39;d like to apply strong counterpressure to systems of social control.</p>
<p>To be sure, in political discussions, political libertarians often set aside social matters. But that&#39;s because they think political means are inappropriate for the achievement of social goals. Maybe right-wing libertarians in 20th century America have tended to see social matters as unimportant, but the main historical streams of libertarianism are not like that.</p>
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		<title>By: Hazel Meade</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/11/10/against-fake-libertarian-clarity/comment-page-2/#comment-584828</link>
		<dc:creator>Hazel Meade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 15:30:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2162#comment-584828</guid>
		<description>Will,&lt;br&gt;Aren&#039;t there some ways in which social coercion is desirable and necessary? &lt;br&gt;How about ostracizing racists, or social exclusion as a punishment for bullying ? &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;There are many ways in which societal pressure may feel coercive. But that shouldn&#039;t mean all taboos and social stigmas are wrong and should be eliminated (particularly through legislation). There&#039;s a role for shaming people into good behavior, and it&#039;s much nicer to do it that way than legislating them into good behavior. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;At some point, people can decide to resist social pressure and do what they want anyway. Which is what legitimizes social pressure as a non-coercive means of affecting social policy; that you CAN choose to resist it, but that other members of society have a right to impose that pressure when it is in their interest. People can choose not to associate with you if they believe something you are doing is wrong, and you have to be willing to make the sacrifice to accept that other members of society maybe aren&#039;t going to accept you. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;This is a bit like the political correctness debate. There&#039;s a lot of social pressure on college campuses to conform to a particular code of conduct, in order to relieve others of social pressures (I.e. gays, racial minorities).  But at some point, conformity becomes coercion. So we end up arbitrating between which social group is pressuring which other group and what the right degress and kinds of social coercion are acceptable. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Isn&#039;t it better to stay out of it altogether, and accept that part of life, and part of attaining freedom, for onself, is going to be resisting the pressures imposed upon you by peers, family, and society at large? I&#039;ve always felt that one must &quot;overcome&quot; those kinds of things (at the very lest) in order to be truly free. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;That allows us the possibility of affecting social change through non-statist mechanisms (peer pressure), while also permitting all members of society the freedom to choose to resist that pressure. Which makes social evolution ever more truly a matter of persuasion rather than force. We can&#039;t forsee what is the &quot;correct&quot; social norm, but we can allow various norms to do combat in a field of battle unregulated by state intervention.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will,<br />Aren&#39;t there some ways in which social coercion is desirable and necessary? <br />How about ostracizing racists, or social exclusion as a punishment for bullying ? </p>
<p>There are many ways in which societal pressure may feel coercive. But that shouldn&#39;t mean all taboos and social stigmas are wrong and should be eliminated (particularly through legislation). There&#39;s a role for shaming people into good behavior, and it&#39;s much nicer to do it that way than legislating them into good behavior. </p>
<p>At some point, people can decide to resist social pressure and do what they want anyway. Which is what legitimizes social pressure as a non-coercive means of affecting social policy; that you CAN choose to resist it, but that other members of society have a right to impose that pressure when it is in their interest. People can choose not to associate with you if they believe something you are doing is wrong, and you have to be willing to make the sacrifice to accept that other members of society maybe aren&#39;t going to accept you. </p>
<p>This is a bit like the political correctness debate. There&#39;s a lot of social pressure on college campuses to conform to a particular code of conduct, in order to relieve others of social pressures (I.e. gays, racial minorities).  But at some point, conformity becomes coercion. So we end up arbitrating between which social group is pressuring which other group and what the right degress and kinds of social coercion are acceptable. </p>
<p>Isn&#39;t it better to stay out of it altogether, and accept that part of life, and part of attaining freedom, for onself, is going to be resisting the pressures imposed upon you by peers, family, and society at large? I&#39;ve always felt that one must &#8220;overcome&#8221; those kinds of things (at the very lest) in order to be truly free. </p>
<p>That allows us the possibility of affecting social change through non-statist mechanisms (peer pressure), while also permitting all members of society the freedom to choose to resist that pressure. Which makes social evolution ever more truly a matter of persuasion rather than force. We can&#39;t forsee what is the &#8220;correct&#8221; social norm, but we can allow various norms to do combat in a field of battle unregulated by state intervention.</p>
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		<title>By: Abhishek</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/11/10/against-fake-libertarian-clarity/comment-page-2/#comment-584698</link>
		<dc:creator>Abhishek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Nov 2008 04:11:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2162#comment-584698</guid>
		<description>Will, when you say you favor the Civil Rights Act, do you mean you also support the parts of the Act that outlaw discrimination by private companies?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Since then, anti-discrimination laws have been interpreted to cover even many private clubs. Do you think that is justified?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Continuing on the theme of anti-discrimination laws, how do you feel about cases like &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.fff.org/freedom/0599e.asp&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt; or &lt;a href=&quot;http://volokh.com/2002_07_14_volokh_archive.html#85248159&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt; where there seems to be a conflict between a right to choose who to live with (presumably a more fundamental liberty than the right to employ anyone of your choice) and anti-discrimination laws? &lt;br&gt; &lt;br&gt;What do you think about hate-speech laws (the kind that exists in Canada and much of Europe)? For instance, would you agree with &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,427221,00.html&quot;&gt;this decision&lt;/a&gt;?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;(Sorry for asking so many questions: I am trying to get a more concrete feel about where exactly you differ with standard libertarian views as far as policy prescriptions are concerned)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will, when you say you favor the Civil Rights Act, do you mean you also support the parts of the Act that outlaw discrimination by private companies?</p>
<p>Since then, anti-discrimination laws have been interpreted to cover even many private clubs. Do you think that is justified?</p>
<p>Continuing on the theme of anti-discrimination laws, how do you feel about cases like <a href="http://www.fff.org/freedom/0599e.asp">this</a> or <a href="http://volokh.com/2002_07_14_volokh_archive.html#85248159">this</a> where there seems to be a conflict between a right to choose who to live with (presumably a more fundamental liberty than the right to employ anyone of your choice) and anti-discrimination laws? </p>
<p>What do you think about hate-speech laws (the kind that exists in Canada and much of Europe)? For instance, would you agree with <a href="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,427221,00.html">this decision</a>?</p>
<p>(Sorry for asking so many questions: I am trying to get a more concrete feel about where exactly you differ with standard libertarian views as far as policy prescriptions are concerned)</p>
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		<title>By: GilM</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/11/10/against-fake-libertarian-clarity/comment-page-2/#comment-584693</link>
		<dc:creator>GilM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Nov 2008 00:07:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2162#comment-584693</guid>
		<description>If he&#039;d repeated the word &quot;coercion&quot; at the end would it have really made that much difference in clarity?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I don&#039;t think it&#039;s unclear.  But, it has a style and a character that makes you do a little more work than usual, sometimes.  There&#039;s usually enough of a payoff to make it worth it, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If he&#39;d repeated the word &#8220;coercion&#8221; at the end would it have really made that much difference in clarity?</p>
<p>I don&#39;t think it&#39;s unclear.  But, it has a style and a character that makes you do a little more work than usual, sometimes.  There&#39;s usually enough of a payoff to make it worth it, though.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Macker</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/11/10/against-fake-libertarian-clarity/comment-page-2/#comment-584689</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Macker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 22:16:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2162#comment-584689</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve never read such unclear writing.   Perhaps because libertarianism is so clear in comparison.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;i&gt;&quot;These libertarians are also notoriously guilty of pretending that their favorite kinds of coercion aren’t. &quot;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Huh?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#39;ve never read such unclear writing.   Perhaps because libertarianism is so clear in comparison.</p>
<p><i>&#8220;These libertarians are also notoriously guilty of pretending that their favorite kinds of coercion aren’t. &#8220;</i></p>
<p>Huh?</p>
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		<title>By: scineram</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/11/10/against-fake-libertarian-clarity/comment-page-2/#comment-584602</link>
		<dc:creator>scineram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 23:22:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2162#comment-584602</guid>
		<description>Why not?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why not?</p>
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		<title>By: Greg N.</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/11/10/against-fake-libertarian-clarity/comment-page-2/#comment-584593</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg N.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 18:46:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2162#comment-584593</guid>
		<description>You sure that&#039;s the post you meant to link to?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You sure that&#39;s the post you meant to link to?</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/11/10/against-fake-libertarian-clarity/comment-page-2/#comment-584586</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 17:17:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2162#comment-584586</guid>
		<description>On the &quot;initiation of coercion&quot;, see &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.philosophyetc.net/2008/11/initiating-force.html&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the &#8220;initiation of coercion&#8221;, see <a href="http://www.philosophyetc.net/2008/11/initiating-force.html">here</a>.</p>
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