Herb Gintis on Naomi Klein

by Will Wilkinson on October 13, 2008

Herb Gintis is one of my favorite thinkers, and I find his Amazon reviews more interesting the the NYRB. So I’m sorry I missed his August review of the Shock Doctrine, and maybe you are too. Here it is. The peculiar thing about the review is that Gintis is rather gentler with Klein than he is with today’s big winner, Paul Krugman. He basically savages Krugman, but seems to extend to Klein the warmth of comradeship, apparently seeing in her traces of his own dissapointed socialist radicalism. He joins in on the Friedman bashing, heartily derides “free market economics,” and then quietly suffocates Klein’s own ideological dreams (so like his, once!) with a pillow and a sigh.

[Klein] reveals her own sympathies towards the end of the book, when she remarks that “Democratic socialism, meaning not only socialist parties brought to power through elections but also democratically run workplaces and land holdings, has worked in many regions, from Scandinavia to the thriving and historic cooperative economy in Italy’s Emilia Romagna region. It was a version of this combination of democracy and socialism that Allende was attempting to bring to Chile between 19870 and 1973.” (p.569) 

[...]

… it would be nice if Klein’s alternative were generally viable. Thomas Jefferson’s vision of forty acres and a mule would be vindicated, albeit in a more socially organized manner. But it is not. Worker’s control is a great dream (I dreamed it myself for many years), but it founders on the reality of capital diversification, which the worker-owned firm cannot handle. Cooperative land holding is just a myth, pure and simple, and always has been, throughout human history. 

Like many progressives, Klein’s instincts are anti-market (although even her precious cooperatives are marketing cooperatives, after all). It is a plain-faced fact that poor countries that have attempted to compete in the world market place rather than shelter themselves from it have done quite well, China and India being the most prominent. The idea that socialist cooperatives might outcompete capitalist firms has little going for it. Perhaps a country with mountainous oil revenues can play at sounding anti-capitalist (e.g., contemporary Venezuela), but the future of prosperity in virtually all poor countries depends on developing markets and state institutions that support markets in a synergistic and democratic manner. It is up to us to dirty our hands (and hearts?) to help them attain this, rather than remaining pure but ineffectual, fighting for a socialist world that, far from struggling to be born, simply cannot exist.

It’s the narcissism of small differences, I guess. Krugman gets it good and hard for being the wrong kind of market-friendly egalitarian liberal social democrat. Klein gets a lovingly exasperated “Oh Naomi!” for her benighted advocacy of the dangerously impossible. Yet, in the end, Gintis does not allow his sentiments to overcome his final judgment. Krugman and Klein both get two lousy stars.

  • T.I.
    I love Herb Gintis as a thinker AND Paul Krugman. Both share this virtue: they're intellectually sophisticated and effin' blunt. Why the need to be blunt? Because the world is full of bullshit ("real estate will always go up!") and bullshitters (e.g. Donald Luskin). When you're honest, trying to talk above the noise, and looking to make a point in a memorable way, you're going to sound a little loud, a little grating, even a little rude. Doesn't matter. Ideas are important. It's important to remain civil in discussion. But calling a lie a "lie" isn't uncivil. Gintis and Krugman are both good at it. The rest of The Left (and Right) should have their virtues.

    If anyone from The New York Times is reading: Bill Kristol and Thomas Friedman are both embarrassments. I mean they're huge, humiliating, deeply shameful excuses for columnists. (Everyone else is at least passable.) Please replace BK and TF with Herb Gintis and Fareed Zakaria, post haste. Thanks!
  • webgrrl
    Ms. Klein et al would just like to live in France, that's all they mean when they say social democracy. But at the same time they do have not the ability to articulate the issues with France, such as the persistent high unemployment, the stifling technocracy and the lack of economic flexibility.

    These are things with which the French struggle every year - read any French paper. I agree France is a lovely place to live, but it's a tad sclerotic. I would have more respect for Klein if she would address how to make a more diverse France work for a larger group of people in the 2st century.
  • Hibiscus Monkey
    Naomi Klein isn't a socialist in any genuine sense, and nor is the mid-far left in general. In their view, communism failed and capitalism is failing, and the middle ground, the social democracy, represents the best of both worlds. Point out that America's interventionist economy is already a "middle ground" between socialism and capitalism and has been since the Roosevelt era, and they will likely contend that Reagan, influenced by Friedman's "shock doctrine" philosophy, ushered in a new dark age of laissez-faire that has directly lead to all of our modern day ills.
  • John Meredith
    "Just goes to show that "socialism" gets stretched and pulled as much as "capitalism". "

    Actually, I think the problem is worse with 'capitalism'. I have had many long conversations about the evils and/or virtues of capitalism during the course of which it became obvious (to me at least) that nobody present really had a clear idea what the term meant beyond some vague accumulation of factors like 'markets', 'big business', 'free trade' etc. The bafflement you can create by suggesting that free markets need not be capitalist is a sight to see.
  • kevin
    Last time I checked, socialism meant a centralized planned economy from which market forces have been banned and the state owns the means of production

    Just goes to show that "socialism" gets stretched and pulled as much as "capitalism". The terms are so flexible now that the USA qualifies as socialist by some standards (like John Birchers), and dog-eat-dog capitalist according to the Kleins of the world.
  • mari dupont
    I wish someone would ask Naomi Klein to define "socialism" if for no other reason than pure entertainment; the woman doesnt understand even her own fantasies. Last time I checked, socialism meant a centralized planned economy from which market forces have been banned and the state owns the means of production (i.e. private property). There has never been a socialist democracy and it is unlikely there ever will be, for the simple reason that in socialism, the state is ALL and (real) democracy acts as a limitation on that state. No matter how many times all the happy comrades of the former USSR went out to vote, their vote was meaningless, as no changes in state power were allowed. Therefore, you can't have a socialist cooperative that competes in a market situation, because then (yes!) it wouldn't be socialist! NO markets allowed! Geez, woman, buy a dictionary....
  • You think that Gintis is a libertarian? Krugman is a John Bircher compared to Gintis. Did his recommendations about what Krugman ought to stress strike you as libertarian? Cause that would be weird. Read this: http://books.google.com/books?id=8CUOAAAAQAAJ I love the guy because he's brilliant, challenging, wide-ranging, and goes where the evidence leads him. But I think he'd wince at the thought that somebody out there thinks he's a libertarian.
  • lane
    I don't think he'd completely wince. Neither would Bowles either--at least he said that in class the other day. Yet, I'd think think identify more with the libertarianism of say Kropotkin than the libertarianism of the American political party. I think Democracy and Capitalism speaks to that a little in their conception of "post-liberal" and workplace democracy, and perhaps in their current work that has theorized community governance (as opposed to state or market). I think Gintis has a thoughtful and provocative radicalism. One that's never predictable, and for that reason is always interesting.
  • Herb Gintis

    > Some have asked me what Krugman should be stressing, if not redistribution of wealth and income.

    I have found it a trait of libertarians that they have angry views about what other people _should_ be working on. Which is a very human fault, but odd for a professed libertarian (to my thinking).

    If there is a libertarian who is genuinely tickled by the full diversity of opinion, I would appreciate having him pointed out to me.
  • Cool Cal
    Will, I just wish to say that I will never ever tire of reading Naomi Klein posts. You are fighting the good fight. She was on Colbert the other day, and Bill Maher, and not once do any of these allegedly educated people suggest to her that the supposed "Shock Doctrine" could be applied to most of the expansions of government power, infinitely more appropriately and numerous than in her incarnation - The New Deal, The Russian Revolution, The Red Guard, Nazi Germany for God's sake - all instances where the ideas were lying around as she says. In fact, I believe it was Lenin himself who said that the Bolsheviks found the power lying in the street and simply picked it up, so perhaps we shan't lay the blame all with Mr. Friedman. But none of these quasi-intellectuals has the inclination to challenge her on this.
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