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	<title>Comments on: No Limits to Growth</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/08/04/no-limits-to-growth/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/08/04/no-limits-to-growth/</link>
	<description>The Sweet Release of Reason</description>
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		<title>By: Emily Green(Love DVD)</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/08/04/no-limits-to-growth/comment-page-1/#comment-589007</link>
		<dc:creator>Emily Green(Love DVD)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Mar 2009 14:22:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1567#comment-589007</guid>
		<description>As commons,I think we mostly care about standard of living.So from my side,I think  the economic growth can be sustainable,living quality is one of the factor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As commons,I think we mostly care about standard of living.So from my side,I think  the economic growth can be sustainable,living quality is one of the factor.</p>
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		<title>By: Alexjr</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/08/04/no-limits-to-growth/comment-page-1/#comment-584654</link>
		<dc:creator>Alexjr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 06:28:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1567#comment-584654</guid>
		<description>Pretty good argument you have</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pretty good argument you have</p>
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		<title>By: Luis</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/08/04/no-limits-to-growth/comment-page-1/#comment-583963</link>
		<dc:creator>Luis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 13:48:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1567#comment-583963</guid>
		<description>Dear Mr. Wilkinson,&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Economic growth has two components, one material and one non-material. As you correctly point out in your post it is possible to create value without increasing the use of resources. This is what some people call dematerialization of the economy and what I prefer just to call increased resource productivity. This process of dematerialization is driven by technological improvements. But technological improvements have limits. As Herman E. Daly (dean of ecological economics) would say &#039;We can surely eat less in the food chain, but we cannot end up eating just the receipts&#039;. This means that we can make the material component of economic growth smaller, but it will never become null.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;One shouldn&#039;t dare make economic points regarding limits to growth without taking into account physical limits and the relationship between economy and fundamental scientific laws as the laws of thermodynamics. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The first limit to growth is the fact that the earth is a finite environment. Once I&#039;ve said this you may think, well, we can recycle non renewable resources forever. Then I&#039;ll ask you to keep your faith in technological improvements at bay and do a little research on the meaning of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. If you after doing this research still believe that this universal scientific laws might not be valid after all, I ask you to search for what Albert Einstein, the scientist who turned human knowledge upside down in the last century, thought about this fundamental laws.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Kind regards</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Mr. Wilkinson,</p>
<p>Economic growth has two components, one material and one non-material. As you correctly point out in your post it is possible to create value without increasing the use of resources. This is what some people call dematerialization of the economy and what I prefer just to call increased resource productivity. This process of dematerialization is driven by technological improvements. But technological improvements have limits. As Herman E. Daly (dean of ecological economics) would say &#39;We can surely eat less in the food chain, but we cannot end up eating just the receipts&#39;. This means that we can make the material component of economic growth smaller, but it will never become null.</p>
<p>One shouldn&#39;t dare make economic points regarding limits to growth without taking into account physical limits and the relationship between economy and fundamental scientific laws as the laws of thermodynamics. </p>
<p>The first limit to growth is the fact that the earth is a finite environment. Once I&#39;ve said this you may think, well, we can recycle non renewable resources forever. Then I&#39;ll ask you to keep your faith in technological improvements at bay and do a little research on the meaning of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. If you after doing this research still believe that this universal scientific laws might not be valid after all, I ask you to search for what Albert Einstein, the scientist who turned human knowledge upside down in the last century, thought about this fundamental laws.</p>
<p>Kind regards</p>
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		<title>By: Mrlvin Goldstein</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/08/04/no-limits-to-growth/comment-page-1/#comment-583678</link>
		<dc:creator>Mrlvin Goldstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 12:11:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1567#comment-583678</guid>
		<description>Available energy is mandatory. Wealth may equate to available energy. If you want to live in a nation that is prospering make sure that its available energy supply is abundant.&lt;br&gt;Solve Energy to mitigate all other issues</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Available energy is mandatory. Wealth may equate to available energy. If you want to live in a nation that is prospering make sure that its available energy supply is abundant.<br />Solve Energy to mitigate all other issues</p>
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		<title>By: News &#187; And What If Tangible Goods Become More Abundant?</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/08/04/no-limits-to-growth/comment-page-1/#comment-581854</link>
		<dc:creator>News &#187; And What If Tangible Goods Become More Abundant?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2008 10:21:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1567#comment-581854</guid>
		<description>[...] lose much of their scarcity. Economist Arnold Kling, riffing on a post by Will Wilkinson about why energy isn&#8217;t really scarce points out that, if energy isn&#8217;t scarce, matter isn&#8217;t scarce [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] lose much of their scarcity. Economist Arnold Kling, riffing on a post by Will Wilkinson about why energy isn&#8217;t really scarce points out that, if energy isn&#8217;t scarce, matter isn&#8217;t scarce [...]</p>
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		<title>By: And What If Tangible Goods Become More Abundant? &#124; bitbucket.kylewelsh.com</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/08/04/no-limits-to-growth/comment-page-1/#comment-581851</link>
		<dc:creator>And What If Tangible Goods Become More Abundant? &#124; bitbucket.kylewelsh.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 18:57:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1567#comment-581851</guid>
		<description>[...] lose much of their scarcity. Economist Arnold Kling, riffing on a post by Will Wilkinson about why energy isn&#039;t really scarce points out that, if energy isn&#039;t scarce, matter isn&#039;t scarce either.  In theory, as you solve &quot;the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] lose much of their scarcity. Economist Arnold Kling, riffing on a post by Will Wilkinson about why energy isn&#8217;t really scarce points out that, if energy isn&#8217;t scarce, matter isn&#8217;t scarce either.  In theory, as you solve &#8220;the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: And What If Tangible Goods Become More Abundant? &#124; Technology Update News</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/08/04/no-limits-to-growth/comment-page-1/#comment-581850</link>
		<dc:creator>And What If Tangible Goods Become More Abundant? &#124; Technology Update News</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 18:55:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1567#comment-581850</guid>
		<description>[...] lose much of their scarcity. Economist Arnold Kling, riffing on a post by Will Wilkinson about why energy isn&#039;t really scarce points out that, if energy isn&#039;t scarce, matter isn&#039;t scarce either.  In theory, as you solve &quot;the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] lose much of their scarcity. Economist Arnold Kling, riffing on a post by Will Wilkinson about why energy isn&#8217;t really scarce points out that, if energy isn&#8217;t scarce, matter isn&#8217;t scarce either.  In theory, as you solve &#8220;the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: And What If Tangible Goods Become More Abundant?</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/08/04/no-limits-to-growth/comment-page-1/#comment-581849</link>
		<dc:creator>And What If Tangible Goods Become More Abundant?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 18:46:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1567#comment-581849</guid>
		<description>[...] lose much of their scarcity. Economist Arnold Kling, riffing on a post by Will Wilkinson about why energy isn&#8217;t really scarce points out that, if energy isn&#8217;t scarce, matter isn&#8217;t scarce [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] lose much of their scarcity. Economist Arnold Kling, riffing on a post by Will Wilkinson about why energy isn&#8217;t really scarce points out that, if energy isn&#8217;t scarce, matter isn&#8217;t scarce [...]</p>
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		<title>By: kanaman</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/08/04/no-limits-to-growth/comment-page-1/#comment-583176</link>
		<dc:creator>kanaman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Aug 2008 17:07:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1567#comment-583176</guid>
		<description>Roger, &lt;br&gt;Perfectly valid point about corn ethanol. But I never mentioned corn as the crop of choice. I hear swithchgrass, for example, has a superior yield - seems to me that the choice of corn as a source in the US has more to do with the influence of Big Corn and other political reasons. Up here in Sweden we are apparently making ethanol out of branches and tops of trees, which are not useful for making paper. So the land and tractors and what not is already out there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Roger, <br />Perfectly valid point about corn ethanol. But I never mentioned corn as the crop of choice. I hear swithchgrass, for example, has a superior yield &#8211; seems to me that the choice of corn as a source in the US has more to do with the influence of Big Corn and other political reasons. Up here in Sweden we are apparently making ethanol out of branches and tops of trees, which are not useful for making paper. So the land and tractors and what not is already out there.</p>
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		<title>By: Roger Sweeny</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/08/04/no-limits-to-growth/comment-page-1/#comment-583175</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger Sweeny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Aug 2008 15:08:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1567#comment-583175</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think ethanol is a good example of abundant usable energy.  Growing corn doesn&#039;t just require sunlight.  It also requires land and water (and fertilizer and tractors and ...).  Most of the energy of the sun goes to making roots and stems and leaves and cobs, and to keeping the plant alive for 4 months.  Very little makes it into the kernels.  Even the little bit of ethanol we have produced so far has taken a large chunk of land.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#39;t think ethanol is a good example of abundant usable energy.  Growing corn doesn&#39;t just require sunlight.  It also requires land and water (and fertilizer and tractors and &#8230;).  Most of the energy of the sun goes to making roots and stems and leaves and cobs, and to keeping the plant alive for 4 months.  Very little makes it into the kernels.  Even the little bit of ethanol we have produced so far has taken a large chunk of land.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Armstrong</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/08/04/no-limits-to-growth/comment-page-1/#comment-583187</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Armstrong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Aug 2008 01:29:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1567#comment-583187</guid>
		<description>The only way we are coming off of fossil fuels anytime soon is if an autocratic, top-down system controlling the way in which we choose energy. We have had enough growth, anyway. Time to make due with what we have got.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The only way we are coming off of fossil fuels anytime soon is if an autocratic, top-down system controlling the way in which we choose energy. We have had enough growth, anyway. Time to make due with what we have got.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Roth</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/08/04/no-limits-to-growth/comment-page-1/#comment-583186</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Roth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 21:33:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1567#comment-583186</guid>
		<description>So...fossil fuels will become scarce and expensive as a result of pollution?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;You&#039;re suggesting a virtuous feedback loop, but I can&#039;t figure out how you think the feedback is happening.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;??</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So&#8230;fossil fuels will become scarce and expensive as a result of pollution?</p>
<p>You&#39;re suggesting a virtuous feedback loop, but I can&#39;t figure out how you think the feedback is happening.</p>
<p>??</p>
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		<title>By: The Art of the Possible &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Earth in the Blogging</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/08/04/no-limits-to-growth/comment-page-1/#comment-581651</link>
		<dc:creator>The Art of the Possible &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Earth in the Blogging</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 03:59:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1567#comment-581651</guid>
		<description>[...] was mulling over Will Wilkinson&#8217;s quickie environmentalism post as possible fodder for here. Since then it&#8217;s become widely linked and controversial. In a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] was mulling over Will Wilkinson&#8217;s quickie environmentalism post as possible fodder for here. Since then it&#8217;s become widely linked and controversial. In a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: jumbolachi</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/08/04/no-limits-to-growth/comment-page-1/#comment-583185</link>
		<dc:creator>jumbolachi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 14:36:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1567#comment-583185</guid>
		<description>I have some reservations with 4 of the 5 premises, and cannot wholeheartedly accept  your conclusion, Will. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://exuberant-rationality.blogspot.com/2008/08/thoughts-on-wills-theorem.html&quot; source=&quot;&quot;&gt;Here&lt;/a&gt; are my thoughts on your position.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have some reservations with 4 of the 5 premises, and cannot wholeheartedly accept  your conclusion, Will. </p>
<p><a href="http://exuberant-rationality.blogspot.com/2008/08/thoughts-on-wills-theorem.html" source="">Here</a> are my thoughts on your position.</p>
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		<title>By: aussie2010</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/08/04/no-limits-to-growth/comment-page-1/#comment-583184</link>
		<dc:creator>aussie2010</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 03:51:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1567#comment-583184</guid>
		<description>&quot; b) a well-functioning price system will shift energy consumption to (cleaner) alternative energy sources as prices for historical extracted sources of energy rise; &quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Unfortunately, save the subways and trolleys built in some cities, we are not set up to use alternative energy for transportation. Interstate electric trains are decades off.  Were it possible to wave a magic wind and instantly create high-speed interstate rail and put an electric car in every garage, we would still find ourselves with another dilemma - how to get enough new electricity to power all those vehicles. Coal and natuiral gas will peak soon and would only be a short-term solution. Renewable energy has variable output for which we have no current way of storing it. Our only hope real hope based on current technology would be a massive and build-up of nuclear power plants.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;(c) the initial high price of alternative energy will temporarily slow growth, but competition and technological progress will eventually push prices below the historical trend and even asymptotically approach zero, increasing average rates of growth;&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Trucking costs, rail costs, commute costs, air fares, all on an inexhorable rise until such time as alternatives exist, will do more than slow growth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8221; b) a well-functioning price system will shift energy consumption to (cleaner) alternative energy sources as prices for historical extracted sources of energy rise; &#8220;</p>
<p>Unfortunately, save the subways and trolleys built in some cities, we are not set up to use alternative energy for transportation. Interstate electric trains are decades off.  Were it possible to wave a magic wind and instantly create high-speed interstate rail and put an electric car in every garage, we would still find ourselves with another dilemma &#8211; how to get enough new electricity to power all those vehicles. Coal and natuiral gas will peak soon and would only be a short-term solution. Renewable energy has variable output for which we have no current way of storing it. Our only hope real hope based on current technology would be a massive and build-up of nuclear power plants.</p>
<p>&#8220;(c) the initial high price of alternative energy will temporarily slow growth, but competition and technological progress will eventually push prices below the historical trend and even asymptotically approach zero, increasing average rates of growth;&#8221;</p>
<p>Trucking costs, rail costs, commute costs, air fares, all on an inexhorable rise until such time as alternatives exist, will do more than slow growth.</p>
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