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	<title>Comments on: The View from the Bearded Mirror Universe</title>
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	<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/06/08/the-view-from-the-bearded-mirror-universe/</link>
	<description>The Sweet Release of Reason</description>
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		<title>By: Political Philosophy &#171; Indistinct Union</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/06/08/the-view-from-the-bearded-mirror-universe/comment-page-1/#comment-581207</link>
		<dc:creator>Political Philosophy &#171; Indistinct Union</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 18:45:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1488#comment-581207</guid>
		<description>[...] a prelude, consider the following from Will Wilkinson which opened some mental doors for [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a prelude, consider the following from Will Wilkinson which opened some mental doors for [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin B. O&#39;Reilly</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/06/08/the-view-from-the-bearded-mirror-universe/comment-page-1/#comment-583414</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin B. O&#39;Reilly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 21:52:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1488#comment-583414</guid>
		<description>&quot;Libertarianism in one country&quot;? What the heck is that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Libertarianism in one country&#8221;? What the heck is that?</p>
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		<title>By: mghertner</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/06/08/the-view-from-the-bearded-mirror-universe/comment-page-1/#comment-583405</link>
		<dc:creator>mghertner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 18:06:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1488#comment-583405</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;if the government is the primary landowner then it get the right to say what goes on and what amounts to payment.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Absolutely correct. &lt;u&gt;If&lt;/u&gt; the government is the rightful, ultimate landowner. But it isn&#039;t. So the rest of your argument doesn&#039;t follow. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Further, without the coercive monopoly that governments enjoy, it is much more difficult to centralize power and land ownership. This is where Kevin&#039;s response enters the picture. With thousands of competing land owners as opposed to a single central monopoly, the use of Exit as a check on power is much greater than the use of Voice (i.e. elections).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>if the government is the primary landowner then it get the right to say what goes on and what amounts to payment.</i></p>
<p>Absolutely correct. <u>If</u> the government is the rightful, ultimate landowner. But it isn&#39;t. So the rest of your argument doesn&#39;t follow. </p>
<p>Further, without the coercive monopoly that governments enjoy, it is much more difficult to centralize power and land ownership. This is where Kevin&#39;s response enters the picture. With thousands of competing land owners as opposed to a single central monopoly, the use of Exit as a check on power is much greater than the use of Voice (i.e. elections).</p>
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		<title>By: mk</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/06/08/the-view-from-the-bearded-mirror-universe/comment-page-1/#comment-583413</link>
		<dc:creator>mk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 13:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1488#comment-583413</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Tom, Here&#039;s my dream for health care. &lt;/i&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Blast from the past. I had forgotten it, but that was a truly awesome post. Deregulation, direct monetary subsidy and computer science, sounds like a good cocktail to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Tom, Here&#39;s my dream for health care. </i></p>
<p>Blast from the past. I had forgotten it, but that was a truly awesome post. Deregulation, direct monetary subsidy and computer science, sounds like a good cocktail to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Will Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/06/08/the-view-from-the-bearded-mirror-universe/comment-page-1/#comment-583412</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 13:11:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1488#comment-583412</guid>
		<description>Tom, Here&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2006/03/19/health-care-fantasia/&quot;&gt;my dream for health care. &lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom, Here&#39;s <a href="http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2006/03/19/health-care-fantasia/">my dream for health care. </a></p>
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		<title>By: Tom Jackson</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/06/08/the-view-from-the-bearded-mirror-universe/comment-page-1/#comment-583411</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Jackson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 12:56:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1488#comment-583411</guid>
		<description>Oops, I meant to say &quot;What would health care look like?&quot; and &quot;It seems to me&quot;  .... I wish comments could be edited after posting. Sorry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops, I meant to say &#8220;What would health care look like?&#8221; and &#8220;It seems to me&#8221;  &#8230;. I wish comments could be edited after posting. Sorry.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Jackson</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/06/08/the-view-from-the-bearded-mirror-universe/comment-page-1/#comment-583410</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Jackson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 12:54:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1488#comment-583410</guid>
		<description>I take Kevin&#039;s point that ideally all welfare should come from voluntary contributions, but it also seems to be that in the meantime we&#039;d be better off with a negative income tax and Earned Income Tax Credit if in return all of the other programs of the welfare state were abolished, i.e. Social Security, Temporary Assistance to Needy Families, food stamps, industrial plants required to say &quot;Mother, may I?&quot; before they shut down, etc. etc. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Will, are you going to write a liberaltarian book to flesh out your vision? Where would health care look like under a liberaltarian regime?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I take Kevin&#39;s point that ideally all welfare should come from voluntary contributions, but it also seems to be that in the meantime we&#39;d be better off with a negative income tax and Earned Income Tax Credit if in return all of the other programs of the welfare state were abolished, i.e. Social Security, Temporary Assistance to Needy Families, food stamps, industrial plants required to say &#8220;Mother, may I?&#8221; before they shut down, etc. etc. </p>
<p>Will, are you going to write a liberaltarian book to flesh out your vision? Where would health care look like under a liberaltarian regime?</p>
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		<title>By: Gil</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/06/08/the-view-from-the-bearded-mirror-universe/comment-page-1/#comment-583409</link>
		<dc:creator>Gil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 10:18:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1488#comment-583409</guid>
		<description>Hey M. Huben!  Like your site.  :P</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey M. Huben!  Like your site.  <img src='http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':P' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Mike Huben</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/06/08/the-view-from-the-bearded-mirror-universe/comment-page-1/#comment-583408</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Huben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 09:27:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1488#comment-583408</guid>
		<description>If Will Wilkinson doesn&#039;t exclude people from the libertarian tent, the meaning of the word libertarian becomes uselessly diffuse.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Hayek apparently made lots of disclaimers to provide plausible deniability to his harsh libertarian conservatism.  But they&#039;re all unfunded mandates as far as libertarians are concerned, until the libertarians stop shrieking &quot;taxation is theft!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If Will Wilkinson doesn&#39;t exclude people from the libertarian tent, the meaning of the word libertarian becomes uselessly diffuse.</p>
<p>Hayek apparently made lots of disclaimers to provide plausible deniability to his harsh libertarian conservatism.  But they&#39;re all unfunded mandates as far as libertarians are concerned, until the libertarians stop shrieking &#8220;taxation is theft!&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Gil</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/06/08/the-view-from-the-bearded-mirror-universe/comment-page-1/#comment-583407</link>
		<dc:creator>Gil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 05:15:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1488#comment-583407</guid>
		<description>&quot;under private landowners, it is a simple process to move somewhere else&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;You can&#039;t prove that because people are forbidden from owning land via the government.  How do we know that private landowners would stay nice and small?  How would we know the &#039;leave it&#039; argument would be easy because &#039;freedom to leave&#039; doesn&#039;t equate to &#039;freedom to arrive&#039;.  You&#039;re free to emigrate but you&#039;re not free to immigrate.  Since landowners are governments supposing private landowners would be nice and dandy is mere speculation especially if private landowners are going to be nice guys and not use &#039;force&amp;fraud&#039;.  And even then what type of &#039;force&amp;fraud&#039; is invalid to a landowner?  A tenant is but a guest on a landowner&#039;s land and what if one day for no obvious reason the landowner rants and raves &quot;get the hell off my land or else!&quot;?  The tenant has now been declared a trespasser and the landowner is free to force the ex-tenant off the land if the ex-tenant doesn&#039;t show any sign of leaving.  The only &#039;force&amp;fraud&#039; not technically allowable to a private landowners is when he leaves his land and is now on someone else&#039;s.  Quite it&#039;s starting to sound the same as to what government already do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;under private landowners, it is a simple process to move somewhere else&#8221;</p>
<p>You can&#39;t prove that because people are forbidden from owning land via the government.  How do we know that private landowners would stay nice and small?  How would we know the &#39;leave it&#39; argument would be easy because &#39;freedom to leave&#39; doesn&#39;t equate to &#39;freedom to arrive&#39;.  You&#39;re free to emigrate but you&#39;re not free to immigrate.  Since landowners are governments supposing private landowners would be nice and dandy is mere speculation especially if private landowners are going to be nice guys and not use &#39;force&#038;fraud&#39;.  And even then what type of &#39;force&#038;fraud&#39; is invalid to a landowner?  A tenant is but a guest on a landowner&#39;s land and what if one day for no obvious reason the landowner rants and raves &#8220;get the hell off my land or else!&#8221;?  The tenant has now been declared a trespasser and the landowner is free to force the ex-tenant off the land if the ex-tenant doesn&#39;t show any sign of leaving.  The only &#39;force&#038;fraud&#39; not technically allowable to a private landowners is when he leaves his land and is now on someone else&#39;s.  Quite it&#39;s starting to sound the same as to what government already do.</p>
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		<title>By: kevin</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/06/08/the-view-from-the-bearded-mirror-universe/comment-page-1/#comment-583406</link>
		<dc:creator>kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 05:00:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1488#comment-583406</guid>
		<description>@Gil: The difference is that I don&#039;t respect the claims of the people in washington that they own all the land under our feet.  Furthermore, under private landowners, it is a simple process to move somewhere else, whereas under the state system, there are huge barriers to moving somewhere else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Gil: The difference is that I don&#39;t respect the claims of the people in washington that they own all the land under our feet.  Furthermore, under private landowners, it is a simple process to move somewhere else, whereas under the state system, there are huge barriers to moving somewhere else.</p>
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		<title>By: Gil</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/06/08/the-view-from-the-bearded-mirror-universe/comment-page-1/#comment-583404</link>
		<dc:creator>Gil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 02:12:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1488#comment-583404</guid>
		<description>&quot;Why does my living within certain arbitrary boundaries . . . entitle someone else to that which is mine?&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Geez!  Last time I looked a private-owning landlord is just as entitled some to my property (rent) for me to occupy his apartment.  I don&#039;t get why Libertarians get into a stink about governments and social contracts - if the government is the primary landowner then it get the right to say what goes on and what amounts to payment.  Hardcore anarcho-Libertaiians want primary landowners to individuals and so how is that going to be any different?  I pay rent to a private landowner, they extract rent, they get to make rules on what I can and can&#039;t do, if I don&#039;t like it I leave it, and, AND, if I don&#039;t like and use force against the owner or refuse payment the private landowner can use (retalitory) force to extract payment or punish me.  So how is there any real difference?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Why does my living within certain arbitrary boundaries . . . entitle someone else to that which is mine?&#8221;</p>
<p>Geez!  Last time I looked a private-owning landlord is just as entitled some to my property (rent) for me to occupy his apartment.  I don&#39;t get why Libertarians get into a stink about governments and social contracts &#8211; if the government is the primary landowner then it get the right to say what goes on and what amounts to payment.  Hardcore anarcho-Libertaiians want primary landowners to individuals and so how is that going to be any different?  I pay rent to a private landowner, they extract rent, they get to make rules on what I can and can&#39;t do, if I don&#39;t like it I leave it, and, AND, if I don&#39;t like and use force against the owner or refuse payment the private landowner can use (retalitory) force to extract payment or punish me.  So how is there any real difference?</p>
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		<title>By: kevin</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/06/08/the-view-from-the-bearded-mirror-universe/comment-page-1/#comment-583403</link>
		<dc:creator>kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Jun 2008 22:36:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1488#comment-583403</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not impressed with the idea of the &quot;social contract&quot;. Why does my living within certain arbitrary boundaries (the same country or the same planet, it doesn&#039;t matter) entitle someone else to that which is mine?  Property rights are absolute, or they aren&#039;t rights, are they? They would simply be privileges, which can be removed by the powerful at will.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#39;m not impressed with the idea of the &#8220;social contract&#8221;. Why does my living within certain arbitrary boundaries (the same country or the same planet, it doesn&#39;t matter) entitle someone else to that which is mine?  Property rights are absolute, or they aren&#39;t rights, are they? They would simply be privileges, which can be removed by the powerful at will.</p>
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		<title>By: Renato Drumond</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/06/08/the-view-from-the-bearded-mirror-universe/comment-page-1/#comment-583402</link>
		<dc:creator>Renato Drumond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Jun 2008 21:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1488#comment-583402</guid>
		<description>Atlas 1882, if you think that liberty has a value for itself and over other considerations, even if was possible to increase total social utility violating individual liberty, you should be against it. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I think a good test to discover if someone is pro or against something on its own sake or because of undesirable consequences is to question if they would change their position if the consequences were others.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;For example, if someone is against civil gun ownership because it raises the sum of murders on a given society, ask him/her if he/she would favor the incentive of gun ownership if the murders fall with this policy. Of course, other questions may be involved, but I think it&#039;s a good start.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Atlas 1882, if you think that liberty has a value for itself and over other considerations, even if was possible to increase total social utility violating individual liberty, you should be against it. </p>
<p>I think a good test to discover if someone is pro or against something on its own sake or because of undesirable consequences is to question if they would change their position if the consequences were others.</p>
<p>For example, if someone is against civil gun ownership because it raises the sum of murders on a given society, ask him/her if he/she would favor the incentive of gun ownership if the murders fall with this policy. Of course, other questions may be involved, but I think it&#39;s a good start.</p>
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		<title>By: atlas1882</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/06/08/the-view-from-the-bearded-mirror-universe/comment-page-1/#comment-583401</link>
		<dc:creator>atlas1882</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Jun 2008 21:05:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1488#comment-583401</guid>
		<description>I think I&#039;m with Nicholas on this one, or at least I don&#039;t see how liberty and the uniqueness of an individual&#039;s perception of utility are completely independent.  What would be the value of one without the other?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I&#39;m with Nicholas on this one, or at least I don&#39;t see how liberty and the uniqueness of an individual&#39;s perception of utility are completely independent.  What would be the value of one without the other?</p>
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