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	<title>Comments on: Arthur Brooks on Religion and Happiness</title>
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	<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/05/17/arthur-brooks-on-religion-and-happiness/</link>
	<description>The Sweet Release of Reason</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 18:38:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Joel West</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/05/17/arthur-brooks-on-religion-and-happiness/#comment-585003</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel West</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:01:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1452#comment-585003</guid>
		<description>I was wondering if anyone had any theories on Ireland.  It is the most religious of the European countries on the religious participation chart by a large margin.  A Satisfaction with Life Index Map - Map published in White, A. (2007). A Global Projection of Subjective Well-being: A Challenge To Positive Psychology? Psychtalk 56, 17-20.(also on the wikipedia page for happiness) puts Ireland in the happiest of five brackets.  That is higher than France and Germany and Spain and the UK, all significantly less religious as a country.  It is in the same happiness bracket as Norway and Finland and Sweden and Iceland.  How can those Irish people be so happy?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was wondering if anyone had any theories on Ireland.  It is the most religious of the European countries on the religious participation chart by a large margin.  A Satisfaction with Life Index Map - Map published in White, A. (2007). A Global Projection of Subjective Well-being: A Challenge To Positive Psychology? Psychtalk 56, 17-20.(also on the wikipedia page for happiness) puts Ireland in the happiest of five brackets.  That is higher than France and Germany and Spain and the UK, all significantly less religious as a country.  It is in the same happiness bracket as Norway and Finland and Sweden and Iceland.  How can those Irish people be so happy?</p>
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		<title>By: Shaneen Clarke</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/05/17/arthur-brooks-on-religion-and-happiness/#comment-584874</link>
		<dc:creator>Shaneen Clarke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 00:35:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1452#comment-584874</guid>
		<description>Several people who implement their faith are happy in other aspects of their lives and those who don&#39;t are sometimes the one that have attain true happiness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Several people who implement their faith are happy in other aspects of their lives and those who don&#39;t are sometimes the one that have attain true happiness.</p>
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		<title>By: jan</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/05/17/arthur-brooks-on-religion-and-happiness/#comment-584416</link>
		<dc:creator>jan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 01:58:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1452#comment-584416</guid>
		<description>There is a BIG problem with your article here. You draw faulty conclusions because you compare two variables without keeping other factors constant (you don&#39;t bring them into your model). In other words your relationships are spurious. Two of the strongest factors in explaining happiness is income and freedom and control over ones life. These three factors have dramatically increased in Europe over the last 30 years as economic freedom has increased. This explains the increased happiness. See the Econmists Quality of Life Index, The Legatum Prosperity Index and Stevenson and Wolfers (2008) for an explanation (don&#39;t take my word for it).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a BIG problem with your article here. You draw faulty conclusions because you compare two variables without keeping other factors constant (you don&#39;t bring them into your model). In other words your relationships are spurious. Two of the strongest factors in explaining happiness is income and freedom and control over ones life. These three factors have dramatically increased in Europe over the last 30 years as economic freedom has increased. This explains the increased happiness. See the Econmists Quality of Life Index, The Legatum Prosperity Index and Stevenson and Wolfers (2008) for an explanation (don&#39;t take my word for it).</p>
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		<title>By: jan</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/05/17/arthur-brooks-on-religion-and-happiness/#comment-584415</link>
		<dc:creator>jan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 01:52:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1452#comment-584415</guid>
		<description>Actually, according to the World Values Survey and the World Happiness Index, Religious people in Scandinavia score higher on happiness then non-religious people in Scandinavia. This is true for every country in the world, not just the US. High divorce rates is one of the things that reduces US happiness levels. However, If one averages US happiness levels on all the cross-country surveys, the US still score in the top 10th percentile.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, according to the World Values Survey and the World Happiness Index, Religious people in Scandinavia score higher on happiness then non-religious people in Scandinavia. This is true for every country in the world, not just the US. High divorce rates is one of the things that reduces US happiness levels. However, If one averages US happiness levels on all the cross-country surveys, the US still score in the top 10th percentile.</p>
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		<title>By: danieldrezner.com :: Daniel W. Drezner &#187; God might not be great, but church is awesome</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/05/17/arthur-brooks-on-religion-and-happiness/#comment-581337</link>
		<dc:creator>danieldrezner.com :: Daniel W. Drezner &#187; God might not be great, but church is awesome</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jun 2008 16:18:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1452#comment-581337</guid>
		<description>[...] a disputed question in Europe.   In the United States, however, it&#8217;s not disputed.  As Will Wilkinson put it a few months ago, &#8220;there is no disputing the data: in the United States, religious participation is positively [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a disputed question in Europe.   In the United States, however, it&#8217;s not disputed.  As Will Wilkinson put it a few months ago, &#8220;there is no disputing the data: in the United States, religious participation is positively [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Norton &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Does religion make you happy?</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/05/17/arthur-brooks-on-religion-and-happiness/#comment-580560</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Norton &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Does religion make you happy?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 12:01:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1452#comment-580560</guid>
		<description>[...] happy&#8217; (defined as 9-10 on a 0 to 10 happiness scale) and those who never go, 33% to 23%.  Will Wilkinson is, however, critical of Brooks&#8217; attempts to generalise this beyond the US experience. He points out that very [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] happy&#8217; (defined as 9-10 on a 0 to 10 happiness scale) and those who never go, 33% to 23%.  Will Wilkinson is, however, critical of Brooks&#8217; attempts to generalise this beyond the US experience. He points out that very [...]</p>
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		<title>By: the new shelton wet/dry</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/05/17/arthur-brooks-on-religion-and-happiness/#comment-580543</link>
		<dc:creator>the new shelton wet/dry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 21:40:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1452#comment-580543</guid>
		<description>[...] The effect of religiosity on happiness. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The effect of religiosity on happiness. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/05/17/arthur-brooks-on-religion-and-happiness/#comment-580380</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 23:13:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1452#comment-580380</guid>
		<description>Where would you rather live, Copenhagen or Lynchburg, Virginia? Nuff said.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where would you rather live, Copenhagen or Lynchburg, Virginia? Nuff said.</p>
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		<title>By: matt m</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/05/17/arthur-brooks-on-religion-and-happiness/#comment-580353</link>
		<dc:creator>matt m</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 04:09:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1452#comment-580353</guid>
		<description>If we look towards alternative causation models for Brooks' data...Perhaps the real trend that underlies both data sets is that being part of the majority view makes you happier, as it is harder to fight as the underdog.

Are religious folk in Tibet happier than the other Chinese who aren't burdened with false beliefs the government wishes to eliminate? My guess would be no.

I believe it is the oppression of lies that the religious force upon the irreligious that could be the problem in the USA. It's harder to be happy when you have people believing in magical creatures that fly around and that they make decisions with their souls and not their brains- and then you aren't allowed to criticize their false beliefs. Much as it must be difficult to believe in one the various imaginary gods in a place that falsely reveres Mao or Kim Jong-Il.

Brooks' assertion of causation is ridiculous and certainly subtracts from any assessment of the independence of his work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If we look towards alternative causation models for Brooks&#8217; data&#8230;Perhaps the real trend that underlies both data sets is that being part of the majority view makes you happier, as it is harder to fight as the underdog.</p>
<p>Are religious folk in Tibet happier than the other Chinese who aren&#8217;t burdened with false beliefs the government wishes to eliminate? My guess would be no.</p>
<p>I believe it is the oppression of lies that the religious force upon the irreligious that could be the problem in the USA. It&#8217;s harder to be happy when you have people believing in magical creatures that fly around and that they make decisions with their souls and not their brains- and then you aren&#8217;t allowed to criticize their false beliefs. Much as it must be difficult to believe in one the various imaginary gods in a place that falsely reveres Mao or Kim Jong-Il.</p>
<p>Brooks&#8217; assertion of causation is ridiculous and certainly subtracts from any assessment of the independence of his work.</p>
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		<title>By: Snorri Godhi</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/05/17/arthur-brooks-on-religion-and-happiness/#comment-580335</link>
		<dc:creator>Snorri Godhi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 18:11:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1452#comment-580335</guid>
		<description>Will: perhaps your latest comment was not meant as an answer to me, but I'll answer anyway. I interpreted your post not just as a refutation of Brooks (which I would accept) but as making the opposite claim.  In particular, your statement: &lt;em&gt;Almost all the countries that consistently score higher than the U.S. in happiness are much less religious&lt;/em&gt; is misleading.  The European countries scoring higher than the USA in happiness are very small countries, and they might very well score lower than several red states.  On the other hand, the big European countries score lower than the USA as a whole.

As an agnostic (with sympathy for Viking paganism), I have no dog in this fight.  What I like about Brooks' work is his challenging the received opinion that people labeling themselves "conservatives" must be grumpy old men.  That has nothing to do with religion, of course.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will: perhaps your latest comment was not meant as an answer to me, but I&#8217;ll answer anyway. I interpreted your post not just as a refutation of Brooks (which I would accept) but as making the opposite claim.  In particular, your statement: <em>Almost all the countries that consistently score higher than the U.S. in happiness are much less religious</em> is misleading.  The European countries scoring higher than the USA in happiness are very small countries, and they might very well score lower than several red states.  On the other hand, the big European countries score lower than the USA as a whole.</p>
<p>As an agnostic (with sympathy for Viking paganism), I have no dog in this fight.  What I like about Brooks&#8217; work is his challenging the received opinion that people labeling themselves &#8220;conservatives&#8221; must be grumpy old men.  That has nothing to do with religion, of course.</p>
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		<title>By: Will Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/05/17/arthur-brooks-on-religion-and-happiness/#comment-580334</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 14:57:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1452#comment-580334</guid>
		<description>Brooks strongly implies that an increase in secularization will harm American happiness. That's a causal claim. If you think that, other things equal, p causally implies q, then showing a number of instances of p (secularization) that not only do not coincide with q (decreasing average happiness), but coincide with not-q (increasing average happiness) STRONGLY UNDERMINES the causal claim. That's all I'm saying.

Yes, Jason raises a logical possibility, but so what? Go ahead and look at the multivariate regression.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brooks strongly implies that an increase in secularization will harm American happiness. That&#8217;s a causal claim. If you think that, other things equal, p causally implies q, then showing a number of instances of p (secularization) that not only do not coincide with q (decreasing average happiness), but coincide with not-q (increasing average happiness) STRONGLY UNDERMINES the causal claim. That&#8217;s all I&#8217;m saying.</p>
<p>Yes, Jason raises a logical possibility, but so what? Go ahead and look at the multivariate regression.</p>
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		<title>By: yarrrrr</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/05/17/arthur-brooks-on-religion-and-happiness/#comment-580333</link>
		<dc:creator>yarrrrr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 14:54:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1452#comment-580333</guid>
		<description>""""""
I have read that regions of the country with the highest religious identification also have the highgest incidents of negative indices such as abortion, illegitimacy, divorce, alcoholism, drug abuse, murder, rape, suicide etc. This might be informing us that the religious aren’t telling the truth when they are polled.
""""""

People who actually practice their faith are happier, have less divorce, yadda, yadda... than any other groups.   People who self identify with but don't actually practice their faith are worse than atheists/agnostics.

Regardless, all "happiness" research is a joke.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8221;"&#8221;"&#8221;<br />
I have read that regions of the country with the highest religious identification also have the highgest incidents of negative indices such as abortion, illegitimacy, divorce, alcoholism, drug abuse, murder, rape, suicide etc. This might be informing us that the religious aren’t telling the truth when they are polled.<br />
&#8220;&#8221;"&#8221;"&#8221;</p>
<p>People who actually practice their faith are happier, have less divorce, yadda, yadda&#8230; than any other groups.   People who self identify with but don&#8217;t actually practice their faith are worse than atheists/agnostics.</p>
<p>Regardless, all &#8220;happiness&#8221; research is a joke.</p>
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		<title>By: Snorri Godhi</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/05/17/arthur-brooks-on-religion-and-happiness/#comment-580327</link>
		<dc:creator>Snorri Godhi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 14:33:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1452#comment-580327</guid>
		<description>Jason Malloy has got it right, but just to put it in 5 words: correlation does not imply causation.  In Europe, increasing income drives both happiness and secularization up.  In America, higher house prices in blue states drives happiness down and secularization up.

And yet, I suspect that there is another factor: I suspect that European religion tends to be more gloomy than American religion.  I suspect that, in Europe, preachers tell us that we could end up in Hell; in America, preachers tell you that you can go to Heaven.

OK, I'm grossly exaggerating; but please send in some missionaries!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason Malloy has got it right, but just to put it in 5 words: correlation does not imply causation.  In Europe, increasing income drives both happiness and secularization up.  In America, higher house prices in blue states drives happiness down and secularization up.</p>
<p>And yet, I suspect that there is another factor: I suspect that European religion tends to be more gloomy than American religion.  I suspect that, in Europe, preachers tell us that we could end up in Hell; in America, preachers tell you that you can go to Heaven.</p>
<p>OK, I&#8217;m grossly exaggerating; but please send in some missionaries!</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Malloy</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/05/17/arthur-brooks-on-religion-and-happiness/#comment-580323</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Malloy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 09:55:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1452#comment-580323</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;But it remains that many European countries have become happier while becoming less religious. It’s not clear to me why the mechanism matters.&lt;/i&gt;

I agree with your main point, but of course mechanism matters. For instance, happiness in marriage has stayed the same over the last 30 years but that masks the changing dynamics of that happiness: married people talk to each other less than 30 years ago which lowers marital satisfaction, but they earn more household income than 30 years ago which raises it by a similar amount. The result is a wash, but it didn't have to be. Communication could have been more important and marital happiness would have gone down, or money could have been more important and happiness would have gone up.

Going back to the national comparisons, perhaps loss of religion does lower happiness, it's just that money more than makes up for it. It is certainly possible that happiness could have been higher still in every one of those countries if religious belief/culture had been preserved through whatever means.

If government policy A leads to a growth rate of 1000% and government policy B leads to a growth rate of 1%, you can't say B was a success (instead of a disaster) just because you are moving in a better direction.

You used the &lt;a href="http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/11/seriously-why-are-you-freaking-out/" rel="nofollow"&gt;same fallacy&lt;/a&gt; thinking about immigration.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>But it remains that many European countries have become happier while becoming less religious. It’s not clear to me why the mechanism matters.</i></p>
<p>I agree with your main point, but of course mechanism matters. For instance, happiness in marriage has stayed the same over the last 30 years but that masks the changing dynamics of that happiness: married people talk to each other less than 30 years ago which lowers marital satisfaction, but they earn more household income than 30 years ago which raises it by a similar amount. The result is a wash, but it didn&#8217;t have to be. Communication could have been more important and marital happiness would have gone down, or money could have been more important and happiness would have gone up.</p>
<p>Going back to the national comparisons, perhaps loss of religion does lower happiness, it&#8217;s just that money more than makes up for it. It is certainly possible that happiness could have been higher still in every one of those countries if religious belief/culture had been preserved through whatever means.</p>
<p>If government policy A leads to a growth rate of 1000% and government policy B leads to a growth rate of 1%, you can&#8217;t say B was a success (instead of a disaster) just because you are moving in a better direction.</p>
<p>You used the <a href="http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/11/seriously-why-are-you-freaking-out/" rel="nofollow">same fallacy</a> thinking about immigration.</p>
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		<title>By: Dain</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/05/17/arthur-brooks-on-religion-and-happiness/#comment-580316</link>
		<dc:creator>Dain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 23:20:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1452#comment-580316</guid>
		<description>What Imp said. 

I wonder if the form of evangelism in the south is not more than coincidental vis-a-vis the high divorce rates, etc. I suppose in a place where faith healers and the like are popular, the time preference of the general population would also be conducive to getting in over one's head in matters of love and lust. 

It's all about passion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What Imp said. </p>
<p>I wonder if the form of evangelism in the south is not more than coincidental vis-a-vis the high divorce rates, etc. I suppose in a place where faith healers and the like are popular, the time preference of the general population would also be conducive to getting in over one&#8217;s head in matters of love and lust. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s all about passion.</p>
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