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	<title>Comments on: Meditations on Collective Action and Moral Norms</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/26/meditations-on-collective-action-and-moral-norms/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/26/meditations-on-collective-action-and-moral-norms/</link>
	<description>The Sweet Release of Reason</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2008 03:02:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Sigivald</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/26/meditations-on-collective-action-and-moral-norms/#comment-553672</link>
		<dc:creator>Sigivald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 23:04:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/26/meditations-on-collective-action-and-moral-norms/#comment-553672</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Ethical vegetarians can be very evangelical but don’t seem to be very interested in banning or taxing meat at all. Why not?&lt;/i&gt;

Because they're rational enough to realise they have exactly zero chance of achieving that goal, perhaps?

The way they get instantly dismissed, laughed at, or funny looks if they suggest a ban on meat would tend to discourage, if not such a goal, then at least mentioning it.

(Achieving it by admitting that's their goal, at any rate - I suppose they could sneakily have that goal and have a "moral softening-up" agenda already.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Ethical vegetarians can be very evangelical but don’t seem to be very interested in banning or taxing meat at all. Why not?</i></p>
<p>Because they&#8217;re rational enough to realise they have exactly zero chance of achieving that goal, perhaps?</p>
<p>The way they get instantly dismissed, laughed at, or funny looks if they suggest a ban on meat would tend to discourage, if not such a goal, then at least mentioning it.</p>
<p>(Achieving it by admitting that&#8217;s their goal, at any rate - I suppose they could sneakily have that goal and have a &#8220;moral softening-up&#8221; agenda already.)</p>
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		<title>By: Will Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/26/meditations-on-collective-action-and-moral-norms/#comment-553178</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 00:55:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/26/meditations-on-collective-action-and-moral-norms/#comment-553178</guid>
		<description>Matt, Sure. But I'm talking about the conventional conception of rational choice in which the effect on the individual's welfare determines the preferences ordering.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt, Sure. But I&#8217;m talking about the conventional conception of rational choice in which the effect on the individual&#8217;s welfare determines the preferences ordering.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/26/meditations-on-collective-action-and-moral-norms/#comment-553174</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 00:50:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/26/meditations-on-collective-action-and-moral-norms/#comment-553174</guid>
		<description>"Indeed, I think the fact that we do successfully solve so many of them basically refutes strict rational choice assumptions."

Aren't rational choice assumptions perfectly consistent with these solutions given preferences for being moral?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Indeed, I think the fact that we do successfully solve so many of them basically refutes strict rational choice assumptions.&#8221;</p>
<p>Aren&#8217;t rational choice assumptions perfectly consistent with these solutions given preferences for being moral?</p>
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		<title>By: Club Troppo &#187; Missing Link Daily</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/26/meditations-on-collective-action-and-moral-norms/#comment-553093</link>
		<dc:creator>Club Troppo &#187; Missing Link Daily</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 22:42:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/26/meditations-on-collective-action-and-moral-norms/#comment-553093</guid>
		<description>[...] Wilkinson muses about collective action, moral norms and culture wars, while Ophelia ponders the question of when scorn and mockery should be seen as permissible in [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Wilkinson muses about collective action, moral norms and culture wars, while Ophelia ponders the question of when scorn and mockery should be seen as permissible in [...]</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/26/meditations-on-collective-action-and-moral-norms/#comment-553047</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 21:54:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/26/meditations-on-collective-action-and-moral-norms/#comment-553047</guid>
		<description>Will,

Are you ONLY making the descriptive claim? Because what you say in the third paragraph - that "if we’re talking about whether or not a certain constraint on self-interest &lt;i&gt;ought&lt;/i&gt; [your emphasis] to be normatively binding ... I think there’s a good answer to that: because heeding the constraint will tend to make the person who heeds it better off, conditional on others heeding it, too" - sure seems to have a normative dimension as well. (Or am I missing something?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will,</p>
<p>Are you ONLY making the descriptive claim? Because what you say in the third paragraph - that &#8220;if we’re talking about whether or not a certain constraint on self-interest <i>ought</i> [your emphasis] to be normatively binding &#8230; I think there’s a good answer to that: because heeding the constraint will tend to make the person who heeds it better off, conditional on others heeding it, too&#8221; - sure seems to have a normative dimension as well. (Or am I missing something?)</p>
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		<title>By: Pithlord</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/26/meditations-on-collective-action-and-moral-norms/#comment-552976</link>
		<dc:creator>Pithlord</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:21:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/26/meditations-on-collective-action-and-moral-norms/#comment-552976</guid>
		<description>Will, 

Are you coming out as a rule utilitarian?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will, </p>
<p>Are you coming out as a rule utilitarian?</p>
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		<title>By: Lee</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/26/meditations-on-collective-action-and-moral-norms/#comment-552924</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 19:18:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/26/meditations-on-collective-action-and-moral-norms/#comment-552924</guid>
		<description>Will, you are not the only person who thinks the "lots of tiny robots" line is cute. Daniel Dennett has quoted it in a few interviews and one of his books. It's a great slogan for naturalism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will, you are not the only person who thinks the &#8220;lots of tiny robots&#8221; line is cute. Daniel Dennett has quoted it in a few interviews and one of his books. It&#8217;s a great slogan for naturalism.</p>
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		<title>By: Will Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/26/meditations-on-collective-action-and-moral-norms/#comment-552819</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:21:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/26/meditations-on-collective-action-and-moral-norms/#comment-552819</guid>
		<description>Pithlord, I'm definitely making the descriptive claim. But I'm not setting out any necessary and sufficient conditions for individual action. The question is whether or not some moral convention or norm tends to actually make the people who follow it better off. There are lots of conventions that do nothing much at all, and I have no problem with them. And obviously a worthwhile new convention can't do any good if some people don't adopt it first, and early on it won't be solving any problem. But whether or not it makes sense to be an early adopter, or to be an evangelist for a new norm, does have to do with whether or not the norm, if broadly established, would be generally beneficial. No?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pithlord, I&#8217;m definitely making the descriptive claim. But I&#8217;m not setting out any necessary and sufficient conditions for individual action. The question is whether or not some moral convention or norm tends to actually make the people who follow it better off. There are lots of conventions that do nothing much at all, and I have no problem with them. And obviously a worthwhile new convention can&#8217;t do any good if some people don&#8217;t adopt it first, and early on it won&#8217;t be solving any problem. But whether or not it makes sense to be an early adopter, or to be an evangelist for a new norm, does have to do with whether or not the norm, if broadly established, would be generally beneficial. No?</p>
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		<title>By: Pithlord</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/26/meditations-on-collective-action-and-moral-norms/#comment-552810</link>
		<dc:creator>Pithlord</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:06:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/26/meditations-on-collective-action-and-moral-norms/#comment-552810</guid>
		<description>If the claim here is a descriptive one that the moral sense evolved as a way of solving collective action problems, then I find it plausible. If it is a normative one that we should do things if and only if our actions solve collective action problems, then it strikes me as bizarre.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the claim here is a descriptive one that the moral sense evolved as a way of solving collective action problems, then I find it plausible. If it is a normative one that we should do things if and only if our actions solve collective action problems, then it strikes me as bizarre.</p>
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		<title>By: John O</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/26/meditations-on-collective-action-and-moral-norms/#comment-552458</link>
		<dc:creator>John O</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 06:15:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/26/meditations-on-collective-action-and-moral-norms/#comment-552458</guid>
		<description>People come first.  Never self.
There is your restraint.

The debate is always if the people are actually coming first.  Sometimes we put air before people.  That is immoral.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People come first.  Never self.<br />
There is your restraint.</p>
<p>The debate is always if the people are actually coming first.  Sometimes we put air before people.  That is immoral.</p>
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		<title>By: Winton Bates</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/26/meditations-on-collective-action-and-moral-norms/#comment-552299</link>
		<dc:creator>Winton Bates</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 01:10:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/26/meditations-on-collective-action-and-moral-norms/#comment-552299</guid>
		<description>I find it hard to accept that heeding a moral restraint (e.g. refraining from pilfering) is a religious position unless conditional on others heeding it. But it doesn't worry me greatly one way or the other!

Leaving that aside, it seems to me that it might be helpful to bring into consideration how conditionality can be related to rational ignorance on moral issues. Rational ignorance comes into the equation because it takes effort for me, and people like me, to work out a moral position from scratch, particularly on complex issues like climate change. So a lot of us tend to follow the lead of preachers of one kind or another (including the secular variety). But we don't just follow blindly - our willingness to follow is often conditional on the preacher's actions. We expect the preacher to "put his or her money where his or her mouth is" i.e. to set an example through his or her own behaviour. And we tend to stop following when a preacher doesn't practice what he/she preaches.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find it hard to accept that heeding a moral restraint (e.g. refraining from pilfering) is a religious position unless conditional on others heeding it. But it doesn&#8217;t worry me greatly one way or the other!</p>
<p>Leaving that aside, it seems to me that it might be helpful to bring into consideration how conditionality can be related to rational ignorance on moral issues. Rational ignorance comes into the equation because it takes effort for me, and people like me, to work out a moral position from scratch, particularly on complex issues like climate change. So a lot of us tend to follow the lead of preachers of one kind or another (including the secular variety). But we don&#8217;t just follow blindly - our willingness to follow is often conditional on the preacher&#8217;s actions. We expect the preacher to &#8220;put his or her money where his or her mouth is&#8221; i.e. to set an example through his or her own behaviour. And we tend to stop following when a preacher doesn&#8217;t practice what he/she preaches.</p>
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		<title>By: Will Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/26/meditations-on-collective-action-and-moral-norms/#comment-552084</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2008 19:39:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/26/meditations-on-collective-action-and-moral-norms/#comment-552084</guid>
		<description>Q, Robots! I'm stealing that!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Q, Robots! I&#8217;m stealing that!</p>
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		<title>By: "Q" the Enchanter</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/26/meditations-on-collective-action-and-moral-norms/#comment-552077</link>
		<dc:creator>"Q" the Enchanter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2008 19:33:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/26/meditations-on-collective-action-and-moral-norms/#comment-552077</guid>
		<description>On the issue of being soulless, by the way, I've always liked Giulio Giorello's remark: "Yes, we have a soul, but it's made of lots of tiny robots!"</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the issue of being soulless, by the way, I&#8217;ve always liked Giulio Giorello&#8217;s remark: &#8220;Yes, we have a soul, but it&#8217;s made of lots of tiny robots!&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Naturalism and normativity &#171; Upturned Earth</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/26/meditations-on-collective-action-and-moral-norms/#comment-552067</link>
		<dc:creator>Naturalism and normativity &#171; Upturned Earth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2008 19:19:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/26/meditations-on-collective-action-and-moral-norms/#comment-552067</guid>
		<description>[...] under: philosophy, religion &#124; Tags: duties, morality, naturalism, Will Wilkinson Will Wilkinson meditates: &#8230; if we’re talking about whether or not a certain constraint on self-interest ought to be [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] under: philosophy, religion | Tags: duties, morality, naturalism, Will Wilkinson Will Wilkinson meditates: &#8230; if we’re talking about whether or not a certain constraint on self-interest ought to be [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Lee</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/26/meditations-on-collective-action-and-moral-norms/#comment-552066</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Lee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2008 19:18:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/26/meditations-on-collective-action-and-moral-norms/#comment-552066</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Did you really read this far?&lt;/i&gt;

Yes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Did you really read this far?</i></p>
<p>Yes.</p>
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