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	<title>Comments on: The Laissez Faire Welfare State</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/22/the-laissez-faire-welfare-state/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/22/the-laissez-faire-welfare-state/</link>
	<description>The Sweet Release of Reason</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2010 21:16:44 -0700</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Dann</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/22/the-laissez-faire-welfare-state/comment-page-1/#comment-584893</link>
		<dc:creator>Dann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 17:21:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/22/the-laissez-faire-welfare-state/#comment-584893</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m quite ignorant in these subjects, I admit. But regarding the problem of scale, what&#039;s really the deal with it? If it works for a tiny country, theoretically you could get ten, twenty, a hundred of tiny countries with that working, right? Up to the populational number of a large country where it supposedly wouldn&#039;t work due to being much larger. Then the intuitive conclusion is that the welfare structure is somehow sliced in tiny pseudo-countries within a country, it would work as if it were many tiny countries. What am I missing? Bureaucracy could put a hold in this goal anyway, I&#039;m not questioning that. But other than that, is there some sort of &quot;structural&quot; problem that would be analogue to trying to raise a skyscraper with the structure of many normal houses one above the other or something like that? I can&#039;t really see  it. To me seems that it would be more like building many houses side by side than something that would collapse. But again, I don&#039;t really know much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#39;m quite ignorant in these subjects, I admit. But regarding the problem of scale, what&#39;s really the deal with it? If it works for a tiny country, theoretically you could get ten, twenty, a hundred of tiny countries with that working, right? Up to the populational number of a large country where it supposedly wouldn&#39;t work due to being much larger. Then the intuitive conclusion is that the welfare structure is somehow sliced in tiny pseudo-countries within a country, it would work as if it were many tiny countries. What am I missing? Bureaucracy could put a hold in this goal anyway, I&#39;m not questioning that. But other than that, is there some sort of &#8220;structural&#8221; problem that would be analogue to trying to raise a skyscraper with the structure of many normal houses one above the other or something like that? I can&#39;t really see  it. To me seems that it would be more like building many houses side by side than something that would collapse. But again, I don&#39;t really know much.</p>
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		<title>By: Freedom vs. Risk &#124; Heretical Ideas Blog</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/22/the-laissez-faire-welfare-state/comment-page-1/#comment-581847</link>
		<dc:creator>Freedom vs. Risk &#124; Heretical Ideas Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 14:34:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/22/the-laissez-faire-welfare-state/#comment-581847</guid>
		<description>[...] century laissez faire, but rather the welfare state/unregulated capitalism that is the hallmark of Denmark and Iceland. I can&#8217;t help but wonder if, stripped from the worry that an unforeseen illness will lead to [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] century laissez faire, but rather the welfare state/unregulated capitalism that is the hallmark of Denmark and Iceland. I can&#8217;t help but wonder if, stripped from the worry that an unforeseen illness will lead to [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Libertarian PC Police &#171; A Banner Coward</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/22/the-laissez-faire-welfare-state/comment-page-1/#comment-566576</link>
		<dc:creator>The Libertarian PC Police &#171; A Banner Coward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 23:52:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/22/the-laissez-faire-welfare-state/#comment-566576</guid>
		<description>[...] Okay, I&#8217;m all for that. So would McArdle be in favor of transforming the United States into a Scandinavian-style social democracy, for instance? That certainly seems to be the best way to provide Americans with some form of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Okay, I&#8217;m all for that. So would McArdle be in favor of transforming the United States into a Scandinavian-style social democracy, for instance? That certainly seems to be the best way to provide Americans with some form of [...]</p>
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		<title>By: anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/22/the-laissez-faire-welfare-state/comment-page-1/#comment-551383</link>
		<dc:creator>anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2008 01:20:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/22/the-laissez-faire-welfare-state/#comment-551383</guid>
		<description>It would be interesting to see which is cheaper: having a minimum wage and less government expenditure or having extensive spending  and no minimum wage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would be interesting to see which is cheaper: having a minimum wage and less government expenditure or having extensive spending  and no minimum wage.</p>
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		<title>By: Finland, Iceland, and Denmark, and No War &#171; Just Above Sunset</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/22/the-laissez-faire-welfare-state/comment-page-1/#comment-551007</link>
		<dc:creator>Finland, Iceland, and Denmark, and No War &#171; Just Above Sunset</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Feb 2008 07:37:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/22/the-laissez-faire-welfare-state/#comment-551007</guid>
		<description>[...] here he argues with Will Wilkinson and all the the others who think that the economic success of countries like Iceland and Denmark [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] here he argues with Will Wilkinson and all the the others who think that the economic success of countries like Iceland and Denmark [...]</p>
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		<title>By: TGGP</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/22/the-laissez-faire-welfare-state/comment-page-1/#comment-550964</link>
		<dc:creator>TGGP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Feb 2008 05:54:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/22/the-laissez-faire-welfare-state/#comment-550964</guid>
		<description>I bet Danish immigrants to the U.S and their children are similarly well educated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I bet Danish immigrants to the U.S and their children are similarly well educated.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/22/the-laissez-faire-welfare-state/comment-page-1/#comment-550680</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Feb 2008 21:15:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/22/the-laissez-faire-welfare-state/#comment-550680</guid>
		<description>I think key moral draw from this story is not just that free market policies can help welfare states, but that well organized welfare states can be the best enviornments in  which to engage in buisness. One of the sources of Denmark&#039;s success has been its truly massive investment in education and worker training, which keeps their economy much more agile than the rest of the world&#039;s. Ditto goes for their tech investments. So the free market knife cuts both ways, methinks.

One other thought: The fact the its so incredibly difficult to get rich in Denmark would seem to throw quite the monkeywrench into libertarian thinking on personal gain. If people shouldn&#039;t work incredibly hard with negligible profit motives, then how can a system premised on high income taxes be remotely as successful as the Nordic tigers? I think some responsibility could be put on cultural cohession, the nordic work ethic, and that people living in these countries think about collective gains in a much more concrete way than say, Americans, might, but all of those would seem to throw water on free marketeer&#039;s assumptions about what really drives people to pursue gain.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think key moral draw from this story is not just that free market policies can help welfare states, but that well organized welfare states can be the best enviornments in  which to engage in buisness. One of the sources of Denmark&#8217;s success has been its truly massive investment in education and worker training, which keeps their economy much more agile than the rest of the world&#8217;s. Ditto goes for their tech investments. So the free market knife cuts both ways, methinks.</p>
<p>One other thought: The fact the its so incredibly difficult to get rich in Denmark would seem to throw quite the monkeywrench into libertarian thinking on personal gain. If people shouldn&#8217;t work incredibly hard with negligible profit motives, then how can a system premised on high income taxes be remotely as successful as the Nordic tigers? I think some responsibility could be put on cultural cohession, the nordic work ethic, and that people living in these countries think about collective gains in a much more concrete way than say, Americans, might, but all of those would seem to throw water on free marketeer&#8217;s assumptions about what really drives people to pursue gain.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric H</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/22/the-laissez-faire-welfare-state/comment-page-1/#comment-549684</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Feb 2008 18:48:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/22/the-laissez-faire-welfare-state/#comment-549684</guid>
		<description>But Will ... what about all of those market failures?! How can they possibly survive? Oh, the inefficiency ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But Will &#8230; what about all of those market failures?! How can they possibly survive? Oh, the inefficiency &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: TGGP</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/22/the-laissez-faire-welfare-state/comment-page-1/#comment-549456</link>
		<dc:creator>TGGP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Feb 2008 06:10:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/22/the-laissez-faire-welfare-state/#comment-549456</guid>
		<description>I thought regulations were supposed to have a greater effect than taxation. Do they have things like SarbOx and OSHA?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought regulations were supposed to have a greater effect than taxation. Do they have things like SarbOx and OSHA?</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Blair</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/22/the-laissez-faire-welfare-state/comment-page-1/#comment-549325</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Blair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Feb 2008 00:35:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/22/the-laissez-faire-welfare-state/#comment-549325</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Of course, there is always the fact that Iceland has about the population of Des Moines.&lt;/i&gt;

And we have a winner! Its more a matter of scale, I think. 

Not to mention Iceland is pretty much a homogenous culture too, which I&#039;m sure has an effect on people&#039;s attitudes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Of course, there is always the fact that Iceland has about the population of Des Moines.</i></p>
<p>And we have a winner! Its more a matter of scale, I think. </p>
<p>Not to mention Iceland is pretty much a homogenous culture too, which I&#8217;m sure has an effect on people&#8217;s attitudes.</p>
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		<title>By: Will Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/22/the-laissez-faire-welfare-state/comment-page-1/#comment-549248</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 21:20:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/22/the-laissez-faire-welfare-state/#comment-549248</guid>
		<description>Of course, there is always the fact that Iceland has about the population of Des Moines.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course, there is always the fact that Iceland has about the population of Des Moines.</p>
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		<title>By: KipEsquire</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/22/the-laissez-faire-welfare-state/comment-page-1/#comment-549197</link>
		<dc:creator>KipEsquire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 18:32:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/22/the-laissez-faire-welfare-state/#comment-549197</guid>
		<description>Iceland has (well, had) its own ongoing Marshall Plan throughout the NATO years. The Icelandic economy&#039;s dependence on (mostly U.S.) military personnel spending their money in Reykjavik was all-encompassing and supplemented only by tourism (which, unsurprisingly, Iceland is now pushing heavily as its strategic role wanes).

(A secondary effect of the NATO factor, incidentally, was that English became the de facto second language on the island -- EVERYONE in Iceland speaks absolutely fluent English. This too has ripple effects on economic growth, etc.)

Just as it is invalid to compare continental European (or Japanese) economic performance in the mid- to late 20th Century to that of the U.S. without adjusting for who was paying for whose defense for 50 years, so too is it invalid to analyze Iceland without adjusting for its symbiotic relationship with the NATO generally and the U.S. specifically, even if it is now winding down in post-Cold-War world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Iceland has (well, had) its own ongoing Marshall Plan throughout the NATO years. The Icelandic economy&#8217;s dependence on (mostly U.S.) military personnel spending their money in Reykjavik was all-encompassing and supplemented only by tourism (which, unsurprisingly, Iceland is now pushing heavily as its strategic role wanes).</p>
<p>(A secondary effect of the NATO factor, incidentally, was that English became the de facto second language on the island &#8212; EVERYONE in Iceland speaks absolutely fluent English. This too has ripple effects on economic growth, etc.)</p>
<p>Just as it is invalid to compare continental European (or Japanese) economic performance in the mid- to late 20th Century to that of the U.S. without adjusting for who was paying for whose defense for 50 years, so too is it invalid to analyze Iceland without adjusting for its symbiotic relationship with the NATO generally and the U.S. specifically, even if it is now winding down in post-Cold-War world.</p>
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		<title>By: Grant Gould</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/22/the-laissez-faire-welfare-state/comment-page-1/#comment-549190</link>
		<dc:creator>Grant Gould</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 18:01:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/22/the-laissez-faire-welfare-state/#comment-549190</guid>
		<description>Iceland&#039;s economy is fairly unusual to begin with, though.  For one thing, prices are astonishingly, brain-crushingly high -- just window-shopping in Reykjavik is enough to convince you that you&#039;re hallucinating.  Probably largely a result of the whole isolated island thing.

Presumably when cost of living is very high a welfare state looks much more appealing because the baseline of economic subsistence is such a large fraction of income.  It may be that in terms of the ratio of per capita welfare spending to cost of living, Iceland isn&#039;t nearly as welfarist as it seems.  Worth checking the numbers, anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Iceland&#8217;s economy is fairly unusual to begin with, though.  For one thing, prices are astonishingly, brain-crushingly high &#8212; just window-shopping in Reykjavik is enough to convince you that you&#8217;re hallucinating.  Probably largely a result of the whole isolated island thing.</p>
<p>Presumably when cost of living is very high a welfare state looks much more appealing because the baseline of economic subsistence is such a large fraction of income.  It may be that in terms of the ratio of per capita welfare spending to cost of living, Iceland isn&#8217;t nearly as welfarist as it seems.  Worth checking the numbers, anyway.</p>
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