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	<title>Comments on: The Moral Claims of Non-Citizens</title>
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	<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/</link>
	<description>The Sweet Release of Reason</description>
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		<title>By: JSBolton</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/comment-page-1/#comment-546200</link>
		<dc:creator>JSBolton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Feb 2008 06:18:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-546200</guid>
		<description>It ought to be asked, how can a prospective immigrant have rights here, just by starting to move this way?  Is there some good to the species to be gained by inventing an obligation of the net taxpayers of our citizenry, to extend protection through our  government, out to all who say they want it? How do we know that foreigners here have rights and not privileges only? More cooperation of whatever kind is always better? What about cooperation by foreigners in increasing aggression on the net taxpayers of our citizenry, is that part of the dynamic cooperation that generates increased utility as it increases? The intellectually honest and sincere would want to answer these questions, or not?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It ought to be asked, how can a prospective immigrant have rights here, just by starting to move this way?  Is there some good to the species to be gained by inventing an obligation of the net taxpayers of our citizenry, to extend protection through our  government, out to all who say they want it? How do we know that foreigners here have rights and not privileges only? More cooperation of whatever kind is always better? What about cooperation by foreigners in increasing aggression on the net taxpayers of our citizenry, is that part of the dynamic cooperation that generates increased utility as it increases? The intellectually honest and sincere would want to answer these questions, or not?</p>
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		<title>By: Micha Ghertner</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/comment-page-1/#comment-544447</link>
		<dc:creator>Micha Ghertner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Feb 2008 12:06:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-544447</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not going to get into citing examples of non-State enforcement mechanisms in this thread; I know you&#039;re well read enough and familiar with the arguments already. The question of stability of civil institutions in a statist world is a good and tough one, but again, far beyond the point I wanted to make here, and far off topic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not going to get into citing examples of non-State enforcement mechanisms in this thread; I know you&#8217;re well read enough and familiar with the arguments already. The question of stability of civil institutions in a statist world is a good and tough one, but again, far beyond the point I wanted to make here, and far off topic.</p>
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		<title>By: TGGP</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/comment-page-1/#comment-541924</link>
		<dc:creator>TGGP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2008 22:31:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-541924</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;a state is not the only enforcement mechanism of rights.&lt;/i&gt;
What are some other ones and why do they matter if the State can just drive them out of business?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>a state is not the only enforcement mechanism of rights.</i><br />
What are some other ones and why do they matter if the State can just drive them out of business?</p>
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		<title>By: Micha Ghertner</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/comment-page-1/#comment-540289</link>
		<dc:creator>Micha Ghertner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2008 21:37:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-540289</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Micha, what rights-enforcement mechanism is capable of protecting me from the state?&lt;/i&gt;

I don&#039;t recall ever claiming I knew of such a mechanism. The lack of such a mechanism, of course, isn&#039;t incompatible with my statement that a state is not the only enforcement mechanism of rights.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Micha, what rights-enforcement mechanism is capable of protecting me from the state?</i></p>
<p>I don&#8217;t recall ever claiming I knew of such a mechanism. The lack of such a mechanism, of course, isn&#8217;t incompatible with my statement that a state is not the only enforcement mechanism of rights.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/comment-page-1/#comment-539634</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2008 13:14:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-539634</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;You gave two hypothetical claims and said if morality/rights are meaningless they are equally valid, which is to say not valid at all.&lt;/i&gt;

That&#039;s not what I said. What I did say was that if all moral/rights assertions are thought to be equally reasonable, that leads to a contradiction -- but of course that&#039;s only true if you think that any moral/rights assertions are reasonable at all. In your case, then, you can at least escape the contradiction. Whether you can escape harm from the state or anything/one else, being unable to claim protection or help, is another matter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>You gave two hypothetical claims and said if morality/rights are meaningless they are equally valid, which is to say not valid at all.</i></p>
<p>That&#8217;s not what I said. What I did say was that if all moral/rights assertions are thought to be equally reasonable, that leads to a contradiction &#8212; but of course that&#8217;s only true if you think that any moral/rights assertions are reasonable at all. In your case, then, you can at least escape the contradiction. Whether you can escape harm from the state or anything/one else, being unable to claim protection or help, is another matter.</p>
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		<title>By: TGGP</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/comment-page-1/#comment-539135</link>
		<dc:creator>TGGP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2008 07:16:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-539135</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;what you can’t do, if rights, like morality, are meaningless absurdities, is make any claim. You’re on your own, TG.&lt;/i&gt;
You gave two hypothetical claims and said if morality/rights are meaningless they are equally valid, which is to say not valid at all. Where is the contradiction?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>what you can’t do, if rights, like morality, are meaningless absurdities, is make any claim. You’re on your own, TG.</i><br />
You gave two hypothetical claims and said if morality/rights are meaningless they are equally valid, which is to say not valid at all. Where is the contradiction?</p>
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		<title>By: Larry</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/comment-page-1/#comment-539095</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2008 06:49:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-539095</guid>
		<description>The argument that a particular belief entails an absurdity is a refutation of that belief for everyone who&#039;s moved beyond Dada. 

You can, of course, believe or disbelieve in anything you like. But what you can&#039;t do, if rights, like morality, are meaningless absurdities, is make any &lt;i&gt;claim&lt;/i&gt;. You&#039;re on your own, TG.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The argument that a particular belief entails an absurdity is a refutation of that belief for everyone who&#8217;s moved beyond Dada. </p>
<p>You can, of course, believe or disbelieve in anything you like. But what you can&#8217;t do, if rights, like morality, are meaningless absurdities, is make any <i>claim</i>. You&#8217;re on your own, TG.</p>
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		<title>By: TGGP</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/comment-page-1/#comment-538894</link>
		<dc:creator>TGGP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2008 04:13:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-538894</guid>
		<description>If by reductio ad absurdum you mean proof by contradiction, it is fine and frequently used in mathematics. You gave an argument from incredulity that two opposing statements could be equally reasonable because it was simply absurd.

Micha was the one who brought up rights-enforcing mechanisms. Just because I don&#039;t believe in rights doesn&#039;t mean I can&#039;t also disbelieve in a mechanism that can stand up to the state.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If by reductio ad absurdum you mean proof by contradiction, it is fine and frequently used in mathematics. You gave an argument from incredulity that two opposing statements could be equally reasonable because it was simply absurd.</p>
<p>Micha was the one who brought up rights-enforcing mechanisms. Just because I don&#8217;t believe in rights doesn&#8217;t mean I can&#8217;t also disbelieve in a mechanism that can stand up to the state.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/comment-page-1/#comment-538878</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2008 03:52:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-538878</guid>
		<description>TGGP: &lt;i&gt;Yes, there is no reason at all for any of it.&lt;/i&gt;

&lt;i&gt;Micha, what rights-enforcement mechanism is capable of protecting me from the state?&lt;/i&gt;

&quot;Rights&quot;? What &quot;rights&quot;? &quot;Any of it&quot; would have to include &quot;rights&quot; too I&#039;m afraid.

Maybe the problem here is that you think the argument from absurdity (&lt;i&gt;reductio ad absurdum&lt;/i&gt;) is a fallacy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TGGP: <i>Yes, there is no reason at all for any of it.</i></p>
<p><i>Micha, what rights-enforcement mechanism is capable of protecting me from the state?</i></p>
<p>&#8220;Rights&#8221;? What &#8220;rights&#8221;? &#8220;Any of it&#8221; would have to include &#8220;rights&#8221; too I&#8217;m afraid.</p>
<p>Maybe the problem here is that you think the argument from absurdity (<i>reductio ad absurdum</i>) is a fallacy.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/comment-page-1/#comment-538704</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2008 01:34:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-538704</guid>
		<description>Will comments:
&quot;Just to be clear, you think Americans ought to get a better shake in life just because they’re Americans?&quot;

First of all, it&#039;s not impossible that Americans mostly deserve what they have. Secondly, even if it&#039;s just a better shake Americans ought to be able to pass it on, at the national level, to whom they choose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will comments:<br />
&#8220;Just to be clear, you think Americans ought to get a better shake in life just because they’re Americans?&#8221;</p>
<p>First of all, it&#8217;s not impossible that Americans mostly deserve what they have. Secondly, even if it&#8217;s just a better shake Americans ought to be able to pass it on, at the national level, to whom they choose.</p>
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		<title>By: TGGP</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/comment-page-1/#comment-538524</link>
		<dc:creator>TGGP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 23:14:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-538524</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Argument from absurdity&lt;/i&gt;
Isn&#039;t that a fallacy or something?

&lt;i&gt;if all moral assertions are equally reasonable, then it’s as reasonable to assert that it’s immoral to do that which I’ve agreed to do as it is to assert that it’s moral&lt;/i&gt;
Yes, there is no reason at all for any of it.

Micha, what rights-enforcement mechanism is capable of protecting me from the state? Because all the competitors seem to have gotten their asses thoroughly kicked everywhere but the high seas and Antarctic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Argument from absurdity</i><br />
Isn&#8217;t that a fallacy or something?</p>
<p><i>if all moral assertions are equally reasonable, then it’s as reasonable to assert that it’s immoral to do that which I’ve agreed to do as it is to assert that it’s moral</i><br />
Yes, there is no reason at all for any of it.</p>
<p>Micha, what rights-enforcement mechanism is capable of protecting me from the state? Because all the competitors seem to have gotten their asses thoroughly kicked everywhere but the high seas and Antarctic.</p>
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		<title>By: Micha Ghertner</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/comment-page-1/#comment-538200</link>
		<dc:creator>Micha Ghertner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 18:43:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-538200</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve seen Nozick. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.mises.org/journals/jls/1_1/1_1_3.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Wasn&#039;t impressed&lt;/a&gt;.

True, it wouldn&#039;t make sense to speak of rights if we adopted the logical positivist position. I don&#039;t, in fact, adopt that position, but I thought I&#039;d put it out there as a possible disproof of your claim that &quot;not all moral assertions are equally reasonable.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve seen Nozick. <a href="http://www.mises.org/journals/jls/1_1/1_1_3.pdf" rel="nofollow">Wasn&#8217;t impressed</a>.</p>
<p>True, it wouldn&#8217;t make sense to speak of rights if we adopted the logical positivist position. I don&#8217;t, in fact, adopt that position, but I thought I&#8217;d put it out there as a possible disproof of your claim that &#8220;not all moral assertions are equally reasonable.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Larry</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/comment-page-1/#comment-537615</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 12:32:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-537615</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;You are confusing legal rights with moral rights&lt;/i&gt;

No, I&#039;m simply talking about what the Constitution, as you point out, refers to as &lt;i&gt;secured&lt;/i&gt; rights, or, as I said, &lt;i&gt;viable&lt;/i&gt; rights.

&lt;i&gt;But then Larry goes on to say that “there are no states without defensible borders, and definable citizens,” thereby implicitly assuming that a state is the only enforcement mechanism of rights.&lt;/i&gt;

I didn&#039;t actually say that a state was the only enforcement mechanism for rights, but I probably should have stated explicitly that it&#039;s the only &lt;i&gt;just&lt;/i&gt; -- i.e., morally reasonable -- mechanism, since alternatives either involve attempts at private enforcement (see Nozick) or are reducible to a state in any case. 

&lt;i&gt;... might it be the case that all moral assertions are equally reasonable given that all moral assertions are equally unreasonable, if we reject the possibility of cognitively meaningful moral assertions altogether?&lt;/i&gt;

In which case it hardly makes sense to speak of &quot;rights&quot; at all, whether as discussed by the Constitution or by Roderick Long.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>You are confusing legal rights with moral rights</i></p>
<p>No, I&#8217;m simply talking about what the Constitution, as you point out, refers to as <i>secured</i> rights, or, as I said, <i>viable</i> rights.</p>
<p><i>But then Larry goes on to say that “there are no states without defensible borders, and definable citizens,” thereby implicitly assuming that a state is the only enforcement mechanism of rights.</i></p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t actually say that a state was the only enforcement mechanism for rights, but I probably should have stated explicitly that it&#8217;s the only <i>just</i> &#8212; i.e., morally reasonable &#8212; mechanism, since alternatives either involve attempts at private enforcement (see Nozick) or are reducible to a state in any case. </p>
<p><i>&#8230; might it be the case that all moral assertions are equally reasonable given that all moral assertions are equally unreasonable, if we reject the possibility of cognitively meaningful moral assertions altogether?</i></p>
<p>In which case it hardly makes sense to speak of &#8220;rights&#8221; at all, whether as discussed by the Constitution or by Roderick Long.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Sailer</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/comment-page-1/#comment-537515</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Sailer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 10:44:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-537515</guid>
		<description>Will claims:

&quot;I am open to serious, empirically-minded arguments about the location of the point at which additional openness to migration leads to diminishing benefits. But, I’m afraid, one sees very little of this.&quot;

C&#039;mon, be honest with yourself. You have no interest in &quot;serious, empirically-minded arguments.&quot; You don&#039;t like numbers and you don&#039;t like reality. You like metaphysics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will claims:</p>
<p>&#8220;I am open to serious, empirically-minded arguments about the location of the point at which additional openness to migration leads to diminishing benefits. But, I’m afraid, one sees very little of this.&#8221;</p>
<p>C&#8217;mon, be honest with yourself. You have no interest in &#8220;serious, empirically-minded arguments.&#8221; You don&#8217;t like numbers and you don&#8217;t like reality. You like metaphysics.</p>
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		<title>By: Micha Ghertner</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/comment-page-1/#comment-537461</link>
		<dc:creator>Micha Ghertner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 09:56:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-537461</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;and not all moral assertions are equally reasonable.&lt;/i&gt;

Putting on my logical positivist hat for a minute, might it be the case that all moral assertions are equally reasonable &lt;i&gt;given&lt;/i&gt;&lt;i&gt; that all moral assertions are equally &lt;/i&gt;&lt;i&gt;unreasonable&gt;/i&gt;, if we reject the possibility of cognitively meaningful moral assertions altogether?&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>and not all moral assertions are equally reasonable.</i></p>
<p>Putting on my logical positivist hat for a minute, might it be the case that all moral assertions are equally reasonable <i>given</i><i> that all moral assertions are equally </i><i>unreasonable&gt;/i&gt;, if we reject the possibility of cognitively meaningful moral assertions altogether?</i></p>
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