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	<title>Comments on: Do We Have a Duty to Breed?</title>
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	<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/04/18/do-we-have-a-duty-to-breed/</link>
	<description>The Sweet Release of Reason</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 04:08:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Happiness &#38; Public Policy &#187; No Child-Shaped Hole in Hearts of Barren Women</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/04/18/do-we-have-a-duty-to-breed/#comment-239734</link>
		<dc:creator>Happiness &#38; Public Policy &#187; No Child-Shaped Hole in Hearts of Barren Women</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jun 2007 19:39:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/04/18/do-we-have-a-duty-to-breed/#comment-239734</guid>
		<description>[...] solipsism of childlessness may be deplorable, but it&#8217;s not unhappy: Although they won&#8217;t receive flowers or candy on Mother&#8217;s [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] solipsism of childlessness may be deplorable, but it&#8217;s not unhappy: Although they won&#8217;t receive flowers or candy on Mother&#8217;s [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Will Wilkinson / The Fly Bottle &#187; Blog Archive &#187; No Child-Shaped Hole in Heart of Barren Women</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/04/18/do-we-have-a-duty-to-breed/#comment-176011</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Wilkinson / The Fly Bottle &#187; Blog Archive &#187; No Child-Shaped Hole in Heart of Barren Women</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 May 2007 17:41:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/04/18/do-we-have-a-duty-to-breed/#comment-176011</guid>
		<description>[...] solipsism of childlessness may be deplorable, but it&#8217;s not unhappy: Although they won&#8217;t receive flowers or candy on Mother&#8217;s [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] solipsism of childlessness may be deplorable, but it&#8217;s not unhappy: Although they won&#8217;t receive flowers or candy on Mother&#8217;s [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Sal Mineo</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/04/18/do-we-have-a-duty-to-breed/#comment-169524</link>
		<dc:creator>Sal Mineo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 May 2007 19:54:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/04/18/do-we-have-a-duty-to-breed/#comment-169524</guid>
		<description>"That bringing a child into existence is “one of the greatest goods there is” may be a truism in Ross’s moral scheme, it somehow figures into none of the major moral philosophies in the history of moral philosophy, as far as I can tell."

It figures in Plato's writing in the Symposium, through the words of Diotima. Although Plato puts the reproduction of ideas higher in the hierarchy of goods he describes there, reproduction of children gets a high place, much higher than, say, financial welfare.

It also plays a key role in Aristotle's thought.

After the Greeks, though, moral theories became more individualistic. It's then open to think of having children as minimizing one's welfare.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;That bringing a child into existence is “one of the greatest goods there is” may be a truism in Ross’s moral scheme, it somehow figures into none of the major moral philosophies in the history of moral philosophy, as far as I can tell.&#8221;</p>
<p>It figures in Plato&#8217;s writing in the Symposium, through the words of Diotima. Although Plato puts the reproduction of ideas higher in the hierarchy of goods he describes there, reproduction of children gets a high place, much higher than, say, financial welfare.</p>
<p>It also plays a key role in Aristotle&#8217;s thought.</p>
<p>After the Greeks, though, moral theories became more individualistic. It&#8217;s then open to think of having children as minimizing one&#8217;s welfare.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Heaney</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/04/18/do-we-have-a-duty-to-breed/#comment-164648</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Heaney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Apr 2007 22:37:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/04/18/do-we-have-a-duty-to-breed/#comment-164648</guid>
		<description>Charles said:

"Perhaps I missed something but I fail to see how his comment leads to the conclusion that there is an inherent duty to procreate."

For Ross, there certainly is a duty to procreate: it's the cost of membership in the Catholic tribe.  Members of different tribes don't have that cost, and that's what makes Ross so nervous.

Different religions optimize differently.  The evolutionary stable strategy for Catholicism is to maximize the number of children in Catholic families.  That might explain why the Catholic church is so hostile to gays, since if there were certain Catholics who didn't have to assume the cost of children (here I'm assuming that gays have fewer children than straights), then that would weaken the justification for requiring that Catholics sire many children.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Charles said:</p>
<p>&#8220;Perhaps I missed something but I fail to see how his comment leads to the conclusion that there is an inherent duty to procreate.&#8221;</p>
<p>For Ross, there certainly is a duty to procreate: it&#8217;s the cost of membership in the Catholic tribe.  Members of different tribes don&#8217;t have that cost, and that&#8217;s what makes Ross so nervous.</p>
<p>Different religions optimize differently.  The evolutionary stable strategy for Catholicism is to maximize the number of children in Catholic families.  That might explain why the Catholic church is so hostile to gays, since if there were certain Catholics who didn&#8217;t have to assume the cost of children (here I&#8217;m assuming that gays have fewer children than straights), then that would weaken the justification for requiring that Catholics sire many children.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Heaney</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/04/18/do-we-have-a-duty-to-breed/#comment-164614</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Heaney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Apr 2007 21:59:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/04/18/do-we-have-a-duty-to-breed/#comment-164614</guid>
		<description>Being a Catholic imposes an economic burden on its adherents, since the church expects them to sire as many children as they're physically capable.  In the struggle for religious mind-share, the high cost for being Catholic gives other religions a competitive advantage.

What Ross is really doing is trying to level the playing field between adherents of Catholicism and everyone else, by forcing everyone to assume the same child-bearing cost as Catholics have, thus nullifying the advantage.

It's the same reason why the epithet "Cafeteria Catholic" is hurled at Catholics (by other Catholics) who only loosely conform to Catholic doctrine.  Those Catholics that strictly follow the party line are assuming a greater "cost" for being Catholic, so they attempt to shame less-strict Catholics into behaving in the same, more-strict way, so that the cost of membership is shared equally.

(Yet another example: in season 2 of Sopranos, Big Pussy's wife confesses to Carmella that she's thinking of leaving him.  Instead of expressing sympathy for  having to live with an uncaring spouse (that is, actually supporting the wife's desire to end her marriage to Big Pussy), Carmella responds by arguing that Catholics don't believe in divorce.  By convincing Big Pussy's to stay in the marriage, Carmella ensures that the cost of being a mobster's wife is the same for all the wives.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Being a Catholic imposes an economic burden on its adherents, since the church expects them to sire as many children as they&#8217;re physically capable.  In the struggle for religious mind-share, the high cost for being Catholic gives other religions a competitive advantage.</p>
<p>What Ross is really doing is trying to level the playing field between adherents of Catholicism and everyone else, by forcing everyone to assume the same child-bearing cost as Catholics have, thus nullifying the advantage.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s the same reason why the epithet &#8220;Cafeteria Catholic&#8221; is hurled at Catholics (by other Catholics) who only loosely conform to Catholic doctrine.  Those Catholics that strictly follow the party line are assuming a greater &#8220;cost&#8221; for being Catholic, so they attempt to shame less-strict Catholics into behaving in the same, more-strict way, so that the cost of membership is shared equally.</p>
<p>(Yet another example: in season 2 of Sopranos, Big Pussy&#8217;s wife confesses to Carmella that she&#8217;s thinking of leaving him.  Instead of expressing sympathy for  having to live with an uncaring spouse (that is, actually supporting the wife&#8217;s desire to end her marriage to Big Pussy), Carmella responds by arguing that Catholics don&#8217;t believe in divorce.  By convincing Big Pussy&#8217;s to stay in the marriage, Carmella ensures that the cost of being a mobster&#8217;s wife is the same for all the wives.)</p>
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		<title>By: Will Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/04/18/do-we-have-a-duty-to-breed/#comment-164425</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Apr 2007 18:18:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/04/18/do-we-have-a-duty-to-breed/#comment-164425</guid>
		<description>It strikes me that Ross was in fact saying that you are harming the children you don't have. We have a duty not to harm. So we have a duty to have those children.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It strikes me that Ross was in fact saying that you are harming the children you don&#8217;t have. We have a duty not to harm. So we have a duty to have those children.</p>
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		<title>By: Charles</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/04/18/do-we-have-a-duty-to-breed/#comment-164343</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Apr 2007 16:55:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/04/18/do-we-have-a-duty-to-breed/#comment-164343</guid>
		<description>It seems the point has been lost here.  I don't think Ross was implying that one must have children, only that if one is going to reproduce it should be for the sake of the child being created and not for one’s own gratification.  Perhaps I missed something but I fail to see how his comment leads to the conclusion that there is an inherent duty to procreate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems the point has been lost here.  I don&#8217;t think Ross was implying that one must have children, only that if one is going to reproduce it should be for the sake of the child being created and not for one’s own gratification.  Perhaps I missed something but I fail to see how his comment leads to the conclusion that there is an inherent duty to procreate.</p>
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		<title>By: Deborah</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/04/18/do-we-have-a-duty-to-breed/#comment-163410</link>
		<dc:creator>Deborah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Apr 2007 01:30:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/04/18/do-we-have-a-duty-to-breed/#comment-163410</guid>
		<description>The point of celibacy is to channel all of your energy, including sexual energy, into the service of others (God).  By way of full disclosure, I'm an atheist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The point of celibacy is to channel all of your energy, including sexual energy, into the service of others (God).  By way of full disclosure, I&#8217;m an atheist.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Heaney</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/04/18/do-we-have-a-duty-to-breed/#comment-163260</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Heaney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Apr 2007 22:58:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/04/18/do-we-have-a-duty-to-breed/#comment-163260</guid>
		<description>You nailed it here:

"What Ross seems to have offered us is a little bit of autobiography: he thinks he has some kind of duty to sire a big family."

I interpret Ross's post as an apologia for Roman Catholicism.  The Catholic church has a single goal: to perpetuate Catholicism, and they know the best way to do that is to convince Catholics to have large families, and to raise their children as Catholics.  All religions do this, of course (well, except the Shakers -- and look what happened to them).

It reminds me of Wendy Shalit's book A Return To Modesty, which makes a different argument (about female sexuality) but is basically an apologia for Orthodox Judaism.  Both authors are describing how different religious groups use different strategies to survive in a competitive religious ecosystem.

Evolutionary psychology and behavioral economics provide useful models for interpreting such phenomena.  It's a pity that Ross is unable to peek outside his religious blinkers -- but that's just what the religion meme is designed to do.  They don't call religious belief a "worldview" for nothing!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You nailed it here:</p>
<p>&#8220;What Ross seems to have offered us is a little bit of autobiography: he thinks he has some kind of duty to sire a big family.&#8221;</p>
<p>I interpret Ross&#8217;s post as an apologia for Roman Catholicism.  The Catholic church has a single goal: to perpetuate Catholicism, and they know the best way to do that is to convince Catholics to have large families, and to raise their children as Catholics.  All religions do this, of course (well, except the Shakers &#8212; and look what happened to them).</p>
<p>It reminds me of Wendy Shalit&#8217;s book A Return To Modesty, which makes a different argument (about female sexuality) but is basically an apologia for Orthodox Judaism.  Both authors are describing how different religious groups use different strategies to survive in a competitive religious ecosystem.</p>
<p>Evolutionary psychology and behavioral economics provide useful models for interpreting such phenomena.  It&#8217;s a pity that Ross is unable to peek outside his religious blinkers &#8212; but that&#8217;s just what the religion meme is designed to do.  They don&#8217;t call religious belief a &#8220;worldview&#8221; for nothing!</p>
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		<title>By: Jam</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/04/18/do-we-have-a-duty-to-breed/#comment-163208</link>
		<dc:creator>Jam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Apr 2007 22:00:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/04/18/do-we-have-a-duty-to-breed/#comment-163208</guid>
		<description>Because they don't think those things are higher.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Because they don&#8217;t think those things are higher.</p>
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		<title>By: Will Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/04/18/do-we-have-a-duty-to-breed/#comment-163148</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Apr 2007 20:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/04/18/do-we-have-a-duty-to-breed/#comment-163148</guid>
		<description>I think Virginia's point was that Catholics don't think of their celibates as guilty of "deplorable solipsism." And, if not, then why think any worse of non-catholics who believe they are called to things other/higher than breeding? 

The point has bite since monks and nuns may be the most solipsistic people in the world. Maybe it's not the deplorable kind, though. Who knows?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Virginia&#8217;s point was that Catholics don&#8217;t think of their celibates as guilty of &#8220;deplorable solipsism.&#8221; And, if not, then why think any worse of non-catholics who believe they are called to things other/higher than breeding? </p>
<p>The point has bite since monks and nuns may be the most solipsistic people in the world. Maybe it&#8217;s not the deplorable kind, though. Who knows?</p>
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		<title>By: Deborah</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/04/18/do-we-have-a-duty-to-breed/#comment-163107</link>
		<dc:creator>Deborah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Apr 2007 19:59:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/04/18/do-we-have-a-duty-to-breed/#comment-163107</guid>
		<description>'An odd argument from a Catholic, given the exalted status of celibacy within the Catholic Church.'
-Virginia Postrel

Not at all.  Just because some are 'called' to celibacy doesn't mean child-bearing is without value.  Besides, who would the celibate minister to?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;An odd argument from a Catholic, given the exalted status of celibacy within the Catholic Church.&#8217;<br />
-Virginia Postrel</p>
<p>Not at all.  Just because some are &#8216;called&#8217; to celibacy doesn&#8217;t mean child-bearing is without value.  Besides, who would the celibate minister to?</p>
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		<title>By: Jam</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/04/18/do-we-have-a-duty-to-breed/#comment-162557</link>
		<dc:creator>Jam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Apr 2007 09:27:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/04/18/do-we-have-a-duty-to-breed/#comment-162557</guid>
		<description>If there's nothing higher than the individual, then perhaps there is no moral obligation to have a couple of children. But if you think things like your family name or nation or even species have a value - &lt;a href="http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/004328.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;a transcendent value&lt;/a&gt; - then there's certainly some sort of obligation there for at least some people to have more than 1 kid. 

I can't tell if Virginia Postrel is mocking the Catholic Church or not, but surely she doesn't believe they teach that everyone should remain celibate?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If there&#8217;s nothing higher than the individual, then perhaps there is no moral obligation to have a couple of children. But if you think things like your family name or nation or even species have a value - <a href="http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/004328.html" rel="nofollow">a transcendent value</a> - then there&#8217;s certainly some sort of obligation there for at least some people to have more than 1 kid. </p>
<p>I can&#8217;t tell if Virginia Postrel is mocking the Catholic Church or not, but surely she doesn&#8217;t believe they teach that everyone should remain celibate?</p>
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		<title>By: l&#8217;Esprit d&#8217;Escalier &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Do we really have a duty to breed?</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/04/18/do-we-have-a-duty-to-breed/#comment-162398</link>
		<dc:creator>l&#8217;Esprit d&#8217;Escalier &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Do we really have a duty to breed?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Apr 2007 06:13:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/04/18/do-we-have-a-duty-to-breed/#comment-162398</guid>
		<description>[...] response to Wilkenson&#8217;s [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] response to Wilkenson&#8217;s [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Virginia Postrel</title>
		<link>http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/04/18/do-we-have-a-duty-to-breed/#comment-161139</link>
		<dc:creator>Virginia Postrel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Apr 2007 02:37:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/04/18/do-we-have-a-duty-to-breed/#comment-161139</guid>
		<description>An odd argument from a Catholic, given the exalted status of celibacy within the Catholic Church.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An odd argument from a Catholic, given the exalted status of celibacy within the Catholic Church.</p>
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